SPFPP 221: Discordant Dating Series - If You Want Different, You Gotta Do Different
I interview Anthony, a black man who shares his experience having had multiple women share their positive herpes status to him. Early on, he gives us our episode title with this statement. He speaks to how he views his Partner’s disclosure to him. He took it as she was disclosing to him in order to run him off simply because he isn’t her ‘type’. Anthony is a stand up guy and speaks to how maturity and education have guided him to moving forward with his partners who have shared their positive HSV status with him.
“Are you taking care of yourself?” is something we spend some time on because on one end it sounds like “are you going to protect me?” and on the other end of the spectrum it’s “can I trust you to care for yourself and in turn take care of those around you (including me)?”. Our guest gives us a lot of things to look for with safety in a person. When disclosed to by his current partner, her intention was to scare him off. He stood firm and knew he wanted this woman and was unbothered by her attempt to push him away with her herpes diagnosis. I asked him what made him choose to stick around regardless? His answer was just that he has an unwavering understanding of what he wants in a partner and she represented those qualities. These qualities outweigh the negatives of the risk of contracting herpes from her.
To this day, a Pandemic, a new baby, and ongoing sexual relations with a herpes positive partner are all seemingly nothing in the grand scheme of being clear on his values and bigger picture. Knowing what you want, AND being confident enough to say whether or not someone has the potential of providing that for you is really where the magic is.
Are YOU willing to do something different to get something you’ve never had before? Does the person in front of you presenting this disclosure support your values and integrity? Do you want the same things over the same time frame? Is this about short term or ongoing engagement? Take these kinds of things into consideration when choosing a partner PERIOD. This isn’t about herpes, this is about decisiveness. It’s about clarity on remaining integral to your values and beliefs. No one “has it all together”. But we can damn sure align ourselves with people who WANT to.
Transcription
Something Positive for Positive People Episode 221: Discordant Dating Series - If You Want Different, You Gotta Do Different
March 18, 2022
Courtney: Welcome to Something Positive For Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non-profit organization that supports people navigating herpes stigma. We connect people to community resources, support groups, as well as mental health resources if they are struggling with the stigma of their diagnosis. You can support our efforts by going to W W W dot S P F P P dot org; that's just the acronym for Something Positive For Positive People. You can donate today and help us with continuing our mission. This episode is part of the Discordant Dating Series. This is the second recording of hopefully a lot [chuckles] where I interview people with are either in relationships or have been in relationships with people living with herpes. And they--at least to this point--have not expressed any symptoms, tested positive, or um...yeah! Or just hadn't had much...I don't know, I don't know how to close that out. Those were the only two things I wanted to say [chuckles] but I acted like I was gonna say a third thing. But I'm really excited to be able to be doing this. I'm really pumped for how many people have shown up so soon after having made the post. This is my second recording today, so I think I'll be a little bit more concise in my questioning and the flow of the conversation as we go through here today. So, Anthony. I'm here with you today, and I believe we connected because your partner saw my post and was like: "Hey, go ahead and hop on this podcast real quick and talk about your experience", is that kinda what happened?
Anthony: Um, pretty much, pretty much so.
Courtney: Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. I appreciate you being a part of this. Everyone who comes on and shares their experience or speaks to having navigated some aspect of the stigma is contributing to...I mean, in 2020, Something Positive For Positive People peaked at twenty thousand subscribers. So that means at least twenty thousand people have, at some point, made contact with some of the support resources, podcast episodes that we provide. More than once, too, so I think that's what they mean by subscribers; if you downloaded an episode more than once. Each of our guests, each of our experiences shared have at least been able to help that many people. So, I'm hoping that, you know, that number only grows from here with people just coming in and out and getting what it is that they need. So, my first question to you is: What made you agree to be a part of this interview?
Anthony: Well, like you said, my partner, my current partner, she's actually positive. And she just really thought it'd be a good thing to [clears throat]-- excuse me--just come out here and just kinda let people know how we met, you know, let it be known that this is a thing and...let people understand my point of view on why I decided to date someone who is actually positive. Things of that nature. And I guess on more simplistic terms, I was kind of more so "volun-TOLD" versus volun-TEERING, but [chuckles] you know. We gonna leave that be there, but hey.
Courtney: [laughs] I could tell cuz because of before we started recording, when she had the music playing and then she came in and she kind of spoke and said, "Hi." It sounded like it was kind of authoritative, it was like: "Hey, you're gonna get your ass in there, you gonna be a part of [laughs] this."
Anthony: "But hey, this is something positive, you're gonna do it cuz I said so", like, all right. I guess I'm doing it then.
Courtney: [laughs] Yeah, so let's start with how y'all met. How did you and your partner meet and how did she disclose her status to you? And then, we'll start there and then speak to what your thought process was moving forward.
Anthony: Sure. Um, I mean we met pretty much, ironically, at kind of like the height of the pandemic. So it's like maybe...March of 2020.
Courtney: Whew!
Anthony: You know, that's when they first started shutting things down: can't go here, can't go there, put your mask on, six feet away, and so on and so forth. We met online. And we started there. We chatted online maybe for about a good month, maybe a month and a half-ish. And you know, we just started really getting to know each other. Then like I wanna say it was maybe...June...no, no, no. A little bit--I would say maybe like mid-May, I think it was around mid-May, maybe the beginning of May--they started to lift the ban. So it made people kind of get out and go start doing a couple things. So we thought, "Hey, since we can go out safely, so to speak, let's go out on a date." So we went on a date and things went well there. And we kind of just started to hit it off, talking more and it just kind of went from there, long story short.
Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: As far as her disclosure to me, I mean we talked about this on a couple of different occasions, but ironically, for her--and myself to a degree--you know, just something you all have heard in relationships before: You want something different, you gotta do something different. So, for her, she was like, I was typically not her type that she would go for initially. But again, you want something different, you gotta do something different, so that was what she did. And her disclosing to me, she didn't really put too much behind it or really didn't think it was going to go too far or anything, to the degree that it went to. So she was kind of like, open about it. Like, in her mind saying...[not to give you] her actual thought, but I think it was more so she was like: "Well if I'm going to tell him this, he's going to run off anyway. Let's just get on out the way and be done." And then when [she] told [me] I said "Ok, I'm gonna give you [inaudible] for that to run me off. I mean, you have to try a little bit harder than that! I'm going to do it different, so don't just run me off like that." So, she was kind of surprised that I just took it so well, then didn't really give it no...I did give it a lot of thought, but I didn't really make so much out of it. Like: "OK, this is what it is, let's just...come on! I still like you, it doesn't change who you are, doesn't change the personality and character, so what is this supposed to do?"
Courtney: Yeah, I hope she's listening...
Anthony: We just kept on and now we're...a year and a half, almost two now. Got a daughter and all that good stuff. So you know, all the little things she tried to throw at me, I'm just like: "Pshhh, out of the way, move! Who you think you're dealing with? Get out of my way, c'mon now."
Courtney: [laughs] Yeah! She's listening in the other room right now probably. You should use this to hype this up! You know, make sure she can hear you and how like--
Anthony: She's actually in a room talking to her sister, but she'll come back and watch it, so. She'll do it then.
Courtney: [laughs] All right. I think that speaks volumes to hearing the other side of this, because I've heard of people using their disclosure as a way to push someone away. But, it's almost like it was a testament to your resilience, how serious you were about pursuing her. And she might have began to take you seriously based on your response. Would you say that that's kinda what you would think?
Anthony: I would agree. I would definitely say it opened up her eyes, like you know, we discussed some of her previous encounters and trying to disclose and things of that nature so it kind of really got her down. So, again, with me she didn't really take it that seriously. She's like--OK, I'm not really her type per se initially, but when she saw I wasn't shaken or moved, by then it kind of was the epiphany: "Oh, I guess someone can love me just for who I am despite, you know, the past, or however." And I said we just kept pushing forward, like I said...here we are now! [laughs]
Courtney: Yeah. That's awesome. Have you had any encounters with anyone who's tested positive for herpes or any other S T I before? Is this your first time being disclosed to?
Anthony: Actually, this is the third.
Courtney: Oh! Tell me more!
Anthony: Yeah...Neesha, well she would be the third person I've been with, and she's my current partner but [clears throat], previously I dated a young lady--this is probably going to be...ooh, I would say maybe like six or seven years or so ago than now. And you know, she was nervous to disclose to me as
well. Once she finally did, she gave me the whole long, drawn-out, you know: "I was in a committed relationship doing this and then I wound up getting it from him." And you know, just really trying to emphasize: "Hey, this is not who I am, I'm not just out here running the streets", and so on and so forth. And you know...and even then, I was OK with it. Like, you know, at the end of the day I understand and I think if this were a lot...I guess the big discord or disconnect that this comes from is simply education. That's all it is. You know, is this something that can be very hurtful and devastating at times? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, it's simply education. It's just something that you--it's sympathy unknown. But once you take the time out to read, educate, see [that] hey, this is something natural that's not a death sentence, it's not what you're making it out to be. You can be fine and you're going to be fine. So, with her, you know, she disclosed to me and I told her, "Hey, that's fine." I will say at the time, you know, I wasn't as well educated as I am now. And I still have a ways to go because I've never, personally I've never tested, you know, had any--anything to do with it outside of like your typical cold sore here and there, and you get that once every...three or four blue moons, so it's no big deal. But, like, I realize again if you can get a cold sore then the virus is already in your system. It may not be to the same degree as somebody else, you know, it may be H S V one versus H S V two, but nonetheless, you already have it. And if you can't control that what makes you think you can control this? Just more preventative steps you know, things of that nature, but it doesn't change how you live your life.
Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: For me, that's what it was. Like, I know what it is. I understand the...I guess, I understand the mechanics behind it, I understand the medicine and the medical sense behind it. And then for me it was just education, you know, and that's how I treated everything. Then I fast forward to maybe like, I would say, maybe six months or so, three months, before I met my current partner. She was diagnosed as well. And she disclosed to me on the very first day. But in doing so, she took a lot of precautions and we just had a really good rapport and everything and she was just like: "You know, I feel comfortable speaking to you. You have some common sense, you're not gonna flip out on me or potentially act this or that way." I'm like: "Hey, look, tell me..." You know, she said she had something important to tell me. I'm like: "Tell me in your own time. Whether it be now, two weeks, a month. Like, I'm not in a rush, I'm trying to get to know you, so hey, no worries." And then she told me that day, and I'm like: "OK." And again, she was trying to say like: "Look, I was with this guy, we were together for this long and he wound up running the streets and doing this and brought it back to me." And I'm like: "That doesn't change who you are as a person to me." You know? "That doesn't change your character, your demeanor." But she did tell me she had her dark moments and, you know, she stayed in the house, and then didn't wanna go into to work, and then she did. She would cope with a lot of drinking, things of that nature. I'm like: "Well look, that's something that you don't have to do with me. I wanna get to know you. And, you know, I've said this is a part of who you are and if I wanna be with you then hey, it's a packaged deal. So I'm either with you or I'm not. So hey, if we're gonna do it, let's do it." And that was just the end of it. And then that didn't quite work out, just because of work schedule conflicts and just trying to be able to spend time. Unfortunately, it just didn't quite work out. And we parted amicably, and...a little bit after that me and my current partner got together and this is where we are now.
Courtney: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that background, because it sounds like there's a little bit of a pattern with the partners that have disclosed to you and like, needing to justify it, also give you the story that's connected to it of: "Oh, I got herpes from somebody who cheated on me, I was the faithful one in the relationship." Is that kind of...like, what does that make you feel like when you hear someone share with you in that way? That they got herpes, and they're telling you why. Because your response is: "I'm here for you, I don't care about how you got it or anything, I know this is more about an education thing." But do you have any sort of feelings about it being "justified" or people having to explain themselves in disclosing to you?
Anthony: I will say I appreciate them trying to justify it and rationalize it. Just because this one thing, anyone's gonna wanna know the background behind it, like: "Well, how did this even happen to begin with?" Anyone's gonna wanna know, anyone's gonna be curious. But like I said, for me at the end of the day, if I'm here to get to know you, that's all that should matter right now. After that, it's a matter of: "OK, well, since this is a thing, how do you take care of yourself? So that way I can help you pattern that or help you try to like put together a schedule so you can maybe match it better if you're not already doing well." Make it so, "OK, great!" Then that lets me know that I can be safe around you, be safe with you, and then I don't have to necessarily worry about what could potentially happen to me. But you know, I mean, it's...for example, if you wanted to disclose, is it needed for me? No, but I do appreciate it and I just let them know that. It's like: "Hey, you can give me the details in your own time, it doesn't have to be today, doesn't have to be tomorrow, just whenever you feel comfortable and..." Because I know it can be a triggering thing. That's the last thing I wanna do, is put you in a vulnerable state and make you feel like: "Oh, you have to do this or otherwise I'm gonna up and leave" or "I'm gonna talk bad about you." Like naw, like you wanna talk about it, we can talk about it. Otherwise let's continue on and get to know each other, that's the most important thing right now.
Courtney: Yeah. Out of curiosity, what is, or what has been, the difference between dating someone who has herpes versus partners in the past. Like, these most recent three partners that you've had, you've been disclosed to three times. So have you found that there's been a difference in how you navigate dating or sex with them versus people who you haven't been disclosed to by?
Anthony: Well let's see, all the ones that did have it did disclose to me fairly quickly. I will say, if anything...the interesting part is for people who don't have it [chuckles], believe it or not. To me, people who actually have it actually seem to be more honest about it. Like: "Hey, this is where I am, this is my stance, this is my sexual health, here's all the information here, let me let you know" versus someone who's not. It'd be like: "Oh, hey, let's just go out and get some drinks, let's get together. Hey I like you, you like me, let's go back to my place, your place." It's like: "Hold on, I need to--I'm not saying I'm not interested, but--at the end of the day, if this don't work out, I don't need to have something I can't get rid of." It's almost the opposite end of the degree. You would think that someone who has it might be a bit more discreet about it: Keep it to [themself] first, you know, really weigh the odds before saying something. But I've just been fortunate enough to where they often tell you right now: "This is it, blah blah blah" than someone who doesn't: You know, we can go on three, four, five dates before we even have that serious discussion. And it's like, this doesn't kind of make sense. This is something we should all do right at the beginning, or at least within the first one to three dates...versus you know, "Let's...you know, this is weird but hey [chuckles] it's how it works out."
Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: So I'm just like, "Y'all seem a bit more honest." But it's like, they know [that] these are the consequences, and one, that decision can change everything. Versus someone who doesn't and is like: "Oh, well this ain't gonna happen to me," and that false mindset. Unh-uh, this can happen to anyone. So don't get too comfortable, don't get too, you know, above your own station. Hey, if it happened to this person it can happen to you. You've just been lucky enough and it just hasn't happened yet. But don't get too comfortable, because next thing you know this could be you in this situation or worse. And then what?
Courtney: You mentioned that you're about to be 40. Congratulations-- Anthony: Yes.
Courtney: --no shame in your game, I appreciate that. I'm curious to know if there's a difference in how you look at the possibility of getting an S T I or dating someone with an S T I, being closer to this age versus maybe when you were in your twenties or--late twenties going into your thirties. Like, what's the difference? I know you mentioned education, but I'm wondering if there's anything to be said for maturity at all.
Anthony: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Like, back in my twenties, especially my early twenties, oh I was reckless! I was...I was reckless! I ain't saying...let me call a spade a spade. I mean...don't get me wrong, I'm soon to be 40 and I'm just now having my first kid, so I was still responsible but...hey, I could think of a few times, I don't know what the hell I was thinking, like, God! Unnh! Like, I mean I'm not gonna let that happen no more...
Courtney: Yeah...
Anthony: ...versus now, it's like: "Hey, you know, let me really get to know you, let me stop looking at the pretty wrappers and clothes and all this on the outside, let me get to know you." Because, you know, you might not be the person I wanna deal with at all, you know, status or not, I mean...mmm-mmm.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Anthony: So, now it's like this is a maturity thing. Let me get to know you better, let me do this, let me take different precautions, just cuz I am older and I have more responsibilities now, you know, just for myself. Let alone I'm more aware of how the world works and the potential consequences versus when you're younger you think you're invincible: "Aw, ain't nothing going to happen to you." Heck no. [laughs] No, no, no. This is...ain't what happens. So, my mindset now is like...I mean, I'm still a straight male! It's just some days just that X in the DNA. But I'm very more conscious of that, I'm very more aware, I'm very more detailed and intricate and want to...I guess a good way to put it is in your twenties, maybe being...late twenties, early thirties, sex is like a one, two, or three versus me now...it's like: "Hey, that's like...four or five, six, like it's up there, but hey, I can push that to the side to figure out [if] you are you the right person for me." If this is someone I can kind of see myself dealing with on good days, bad days, so on and so forth. Because one thing I like to tell people in any aspect--dating, work, family, friend or however--is that it's very true that time's the one thing we spend we cannot get it back, no matter what we do. So, when you're younger, yeah you...I was a bit more reckless, but now it's like: "Oh, my time is very important and very precious to me." And I know it's limited, not because of...just cuz I'm older like, there's a finite time that we're on this planet, period. So, now that I've come to realize that more and more, like: "Hey, do I want to give you my time and energy and stuff? Are you worth it? And if you are, that's one thing, but if you're not, hey I can cut this short now, move around." You know, like, "Well, she look good, let me give it a chance, let me give it..." Naw. Mmm-mmm.
Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: No. You've got about a good, maybe, a good 30 days, 60 days, hey...[raps palm on table three times] What are we doing?
Courtney: [chuckles] Yeah...
Anthony: Do I like you enough, do I want to deal with you some more? Or no? Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: If I'm not what you want, tell me up front. You won't hurt my feelings. I'm grown. I've heard it all, seen it all, they can tell me. So, look, it is what it is.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Anthony: If I'm not your cup to tea, that's fine! I'm somebody else's. Let me go find them and you go find whatever it is you want.
Courtney: So you kind of spoke to this a little bit in what you just shared. Honesty has become something important to you. It's not [about] "Do you look good, how well put together are you?" It's more attractive, if you will, to experience that honesty from someone, is kind of what I heard. I would like to know if going into these relationships, would you say that you knew what you wanted? And I'm curious to know how did that affect whether or not you pursued someone? Were you looking at long term or short term? Did that impact your decision to move forward with the women who disclosed to you?
Anthony: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. [clears throat] For me, it's always been about long term. Always been about long term. At its core, you date people to find out who you want to be with in this thing called life. In this journey. Cuz it's a long journey! So, I've seen people where they will be like: "Oh, I like this person--" They probably will date for about two to three years, will break up, go outside their ways and you know maybe come out, but, like...why are you already planning to not be with this person? How do you already have a set time frame? And if that's the case, then why even date them to begin with? If you already see that this isn't going to last like, a year, two years, but yet you're still going to waste your time? No! I'm not even gonna do that. I'm in for the long term, so that's what I want to know with them. Like, are you just talking about this about the here and now? You just want to have a good time? And if so, cool, we can be friends, but at least I know where to compartmentalize you. So, I'm not going to give you as much time as I would with someone who says, "Hey, I'm trying to do this for 10, 15, 20 years with you or longer." Versus someone that's gonna say, "Yeah, we can have it good for the next six months, maybe a year." OK, like I know where to put you at. So, for me it's always been long term and it was for them as well. And that's why they've lasted the time frame that they did. You know, if we both want long term but it just so happens to get cut short for whatever reason, that's one thing. That's not a waste of my time. You know that was just it, it just didn't work out, we just didn't click like we thought, that's fine. Versus someone coming in and they know right out the gate: "I'm just looking for a good time for the next three months or six months while I'm in town working" or whatever. I'm not gonna waste my time with that, cuz when you leave, yeah, I'll have had a great time, but if I'm wanting more and then you leave? Then I'm wacky. And I'm going to want to be wanting more from you which I can no longer get. Versus someone who says, "I want long term with you, so let's do it. You can feed into me, I can feed into you and we can go from there and see where this journey takes us."
Courtney: Yeah. In these relationships, where you're invested long term, you know going in, you want long term. You know that--
Anthony: Yes.
Courtney: --honesty is something that's important to you. So where does this weigh in terms--what's the difference between like...hmm, let me rephrase how I'm trying to ask this. What I want to ask you is where does the value of potentially getting genital herpes from a partner weigh, in reference to, the longevity and the potential of the relationship with someone who's honest?
Anthony: OK, well, again like you said, honesty is the biggest thing. And the next part of it, like I said, it's just...once you're honest with me, it's like: "OK, now we've got that major...we got over that major hurdle, how are you taking care of yourself? What are you preventative steps, measures, so on and so forth?" Because if you're doing everything you can to take care of yourself and keep yourself safe, you know, so on and so forth, if I know [that] you're going to look out for yourself that much, then you're going to look out for me just as much. Just like you're going to expect the same thing from me with you. Now, if you're telling me up front [that] you're great, but you're like: "Yeah, I got some medication, but I'm supposed to take it once a week or once every couple of days, but I only take it like once every two weeks just because oh I get busy, I forget"--unh-uh. We're going to stop right here and we're going to go...you know, I'm going to help you on a schedule, get on a pattern. That's my job as a potential long term partner--interest, love, whatever. If I'm going to be here long term, then that's my job to help better you just like you wanna help better me: "So hey, thanks for telling me. This is the issue and you can't stick to it? Then let me help you get on track--
Courtney: Yeah!
Anthony: --so we don't have to worry about this going forward."
Courtney: I wanna speak to that real quick, because on one hand it can sound like you're saying, "Naw, you're gonna take this medication." But what I'm hearing underneath that is: "I need you to take care of yourself." It sounds like some people can present and say, "All right, well I'm supposed to do this, but I'm not doing that and it's because it's not a priority to me." But it's something that should be a priority, and based on how you said...you didn't say, "Take care of me." You said, "Take care of you, take care of yourself." You said that part first, and...the better that someone is able to take care of themselves, the better they are able to take care of other people. And this translates beyond just herpes. This isn't exclusively where that fits in. Because if you're able to take care of yourself, as yourself, you and your own being, then--
Anthony: As an individual.
Courtney: --then...yeah, thank you! As an individual, you're taking care of yourself, then that extends into every other apsect of your life. Because now you're at a hundred percent, so now you can give of that hundred percent to a relationship, to being a parent, to being a friend and an employee, employer, entrepreneur, whatever ventures you take on, then that's who is showing up: You, at a hundred percent, taken care of. So you're not like pushing for someone to be able to take care of you, you're pushing that partner to be able to take care of themselves, and then, in hand, just by association, they'll be able to be supportive and help take care of you. I wanted to speak to that because it goes beyond just the health piece. But yes, it's a very significant part of it.
Anthony: Absolutely. Just for the fact of, I mean...one, let's be honest. We may come to this wanting to...for this to last the next 30, 40 to 50 years. And that's great, but it may not. So at the very least, no matter what, you're gonna always have yourself. And if you're not taking care of yourself, then how can I expect to take care of me if we make it? So, I'm not saying I don't want it, by all means I do. But what kind of partner would I be if I'm not even helping you take care of yourself? Again, at the end of the day, you're gonna always have you. I may or may not be here, you know, something could happen to me--whether it be illness, freak accident, in this space right now with Covid--like anything can happen. I may not be here to help keep you on track anymore. So you've gotta be able to do it for yourself. And the same thing with me. If I've got some kind of medical issue but I'm not ready to take care of what I need to, or whatever the case may be, I can't be dependent upon you to take care of me. I gotta be able to do it for myself. You're supposed to be able to just help enhance that and, you know, support me in it, and we can go from there. Cuz again, if something happens to you and you were taking care of me but I'm...but you're not here, I gotta be able to take care of myself.
Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: Well at least, that's my set on it.
Courtney: OK. I wanna speak back to this: "If you want something different, you gotta do something different." And--
Anthony: OK.
Courtney: --you spoke to that on your partner's behalf: You being something different. I'm curious to know, what is it that makes you different? Is it that you want long-term? I know that you said some partners felt the need to justify to you how they got herpes, and that someone cheated on them and that was how they got it, they were in a committed relationship. So, in your experience of being different, what is it that makes you the "different" to these partners?
Anthony: Well, taking a guess from my standpoint, I think what made me different was: One, they felt comfortable enough to even disclose to me, number one to begin with. When they disclosed to someone prior to me, they all said, "Well, I waited, you know, three months, six months, a year or so before I even said anything about it. And if they ask why I want to be intimate, [I'll say], 'oh, I just got my reason'." And it just never happened til they finally said something. Versus with me they were like: "I feel comfortable telling you this." Or in the case of my current partner, she didn't expect this to even go anywhere to begin with. She was like: "I was just telling him to run him off and be done." But what made me different and out of...possibly, to my current partner, what may be different to her, was the fact that she was used to looking for guys that are like the whole...six foot two, 220, solid build, bad boy-ish persona whatever, and I guess for a lack of a better term: "God's gift to women." [men that say] "If you don't want me, fine, I can just get somebody else." So, it's like they're gonna do whatever they can to get you and keep you, but you know, those will be the same ones that you think: "Oh, I love this guy," but he went out and did this to you or did that to you. Oh, he's using up all your money, oh you can't depend on him for nothing, but yet...this is...so, she was just like: "I got tired of that. And you know, now I'm dealing with this, this makes it even harder cuz now...I've gotta tell them for their own personal health and safety." And that chopped down your options even more so. So it's like you know she was just like: "[sighs] You know, you're cute, you're nice, but, not who I'm looking for. But I want someone to be here for me and I want someone that's gonna be with me and love me for me. But I don't quite see it, so ok, here, I'm gonna tell him." And when she saw me and I wasn't shaken by it, then I said that was a lightbulb. I'm like: "Well, let me get my actual chance! Let me, let me dig a little bit deeper." Now like I said, here we are now, got a kid and you know it's like was not expecting this and I'm like hey you know, you just never know.
Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: What you may want may not come packaged the way you want it but hey, you just gotta be open to it.
Courtney: Uh-huh! And I like how you say that because the way that, on the outside looking in, it could sound like: "Oh, she felt like her options were limited or her standards were low." But I really like how you speak to how you went after what you wanted, that's what this was about. Regardless of how she might have been feeling or how she might have saw herself, you saw in her her honesty, you saw her beauty, you saw more to her and this potential for long term and that's what you went for. So, I guess my question from here is: Outside of the honesty and looks and potential for long term, were there other things that were in your mind about what made her compatible? Why was she someone that you wanted to be with outside of just honesty?
Anthony: Oh yeah. [clears throat] Has to have the honesty, and the looks, and, you know, things of that nature. Her wanting long-term, like you said. She had drive, she had passion. You know, we were opposites, she's...not saying that she was something I wasn't looking for. I mean, our interests are way different. And like I would say, opposites attract. And so, I'm like, you know...[clears throat] There are things that she likes that beforehand I would have never gotten into. You couldn't have paid me to even think about it. But now I enjoy those things with her and...just because hey, you're my partner, you like them...let me just try it out. And then I wound up liking it almost as much as she does. And vice versa with me. And one of the big things between us...like I'm a wrestling man. I like my W W E, U M A W, my impact wrestling, that's my thing. Wasn't her thing. But now she'll sit back and watch Friday Night Smackdown with me and you know...she may not watch the entire show, but she'll watch certain things...she can follow along so she's now interested even more so now. Now for me, for her thing: she loves the RuPaul drag show. You can't pay me--you wouldn't--not on this planet or the next would I ever thought. Now--
Courtney: [chuckles softly]
Anthony: --she'll be talking about, "Hey, it's coming on." [and I'll respond with] "Ok, look, let's get this popcorn--
Courtney: [laughs]
Anthony: --I'm just like...and I'm like, I ain't...something wrong with me now? Now where--but you know, it's a great show. And I would have never, never thought to watch it. But now, hey, that's something we do.
Courtney: Hey, I ain't gonna lie to you, I just watched it a couple of days ago with my old college roommate [laughs]. This was the season premiere, I was like, "Woah, what's this straight dude on here, like hold on, how they go, when they gone figure this out?" [laughs]
Anthony: I got to the end I'm like: "You just out-gayed a gay man!"
Courtney: Yeah! Yeah. He killing it though too, that's the thing, he killing it! Came out there with--
Anthony: Hey, that whole Antoinette thing I'm like "what the--"
Courtney: [laughs] Oh, this is cool, man. Like I'm really excited for this, I'm excited for this relationship. I'm excited for just the fact that you were willing to share here. And y'all got a kid together! I'm curious to know, like from your perspective, did you have any concerns about any sort of complications that would come with having a child and your partner who's birthing the child having herpes?
Anthony: Mmm-mm.
Courtney: No concerns! That's what I'm talking about! Yeah. So did you, was this just an education thing, like, that is what alleviated any potential concerns that you might have had?
Anthony: Education and trust. Plain and simple. The education...like I said, I know where it comes from, I already had a good base for it. Now being with her, and my past, I know even more now than I did before. But then on top of that I trust her, by saying you're doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. So therefore, if you're going to take care of yourself then that means you're going to take care of me and now that we have a kid, I know you're going to take care of my child the same way. You're going to do whatever it takes to make sure they got what they need. They're gonna be looked out for, anything that comes up slightly out of line, you're going to be on it. I mean I trust you to to take care of yourself, so why wouldn't I trust you to take care of my child? I mean that's all of us.
Courtney: Yeah. This is the long game. Like, you exemplify a person who's playing the long game. And I think that maybe it's an age difference, maybe it's the paradox of choice with having so many different potential partners available to you and accessible to you from a thumb swipe that people may not be as invested as they can be in someone because there's so many options. And vulnerability isn't really something that's exciting or hyped up. Like, it takes a lot to share something vulnerable with somebody and welcome them in for emotional connection and to give the opportunity--
Anthony: And so many people think that that's a sign of weakness and it's not!
Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: It is not.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Anthony: For you to say something so personal, so intimate about yourself, it's like: "I want to trust you and share this with you." And you have to hope and pray that they don't try to use that to hurt you, use it against you or something. That's a whole hell of a lot of strength.
Courtney: Yeah.
Anthony: That's a mindset thing. It's not weak at all, that takes a whole hell of a lot of strength.
Courtney: Yeah. And when we are faced with so many options of who to be vulnerable with, like it's taxing. And yes, it takes a lot of strength but it also takes a lot of recovery because you pour into somebody like that and when it's not reciprocated I think that's when we get these symptoms of burnout. Like dating fatigue. And swiping fatigue, if you will. But when you--
Anthony: Oh yeah.
Courtney: --decide you know [that] this is what I want, I see the potential in this person--yeah, it's gonna be hard to be vulnerable with them and open up to them--but you know what you want and you're going for it. And it's just like you said at the beginning of the podcast: If you want something different, you gotta do something different. So if that looks like being vulnerable and demonstrating that vulnerability with someone who you might move forward with or you might not move forward with, then that's the chance that you have to take. We look at people as taking a risk being with us for having herpes but we don't look at the risk of not taking the risk of giving someone the opportunity to show us that they're someone that we want to be with and have compatibility with.
Anthony: Absolutely. I mean if anything, I would say to anyone who is--who has these symptoms or who is positive--I would disclose it early. Because if nothing else, if you disclose and they freak out and say some of the worst things they can possibly say--and they're gonna try--that lets you know right outta the gate. You're not gonna be dealing with. Point blank, period. I can cut you off right now, save myself a lot of time and trouble and...save all my energy. But if you disclose to someone and it's like: "OK, you know, give me...more background, educate me a little bit more on how did this happen." OK, now I know and they still sticking there with you, that's who you want to put your time and energy into. Because they look past it and say, "OK, now that I know, I got fully educated, I'm gonna make a decision. I still choose to rock with you." OK, let's see where this goes. It may not work out, that's still a possibility, but at the very least you know that this person has some character to themselves, if nothing else.
Courtney: Yeah. That's beautifully said. The last question I have for you is something I try to ask all the guests if I remember to do so. Now, we talk a lot on this podcast and other episodes about the interconnectedness of sexual health and mental health. And I'm curious to know, when I say: "Sexual health is mental health", what comes to mind for you when you hear that statement?
Anthony: When I hear that statement, [clears throat] that sexual health is mental health, it brings out "very true." Because I mean let's be honest: As men, we put a whole lot of emphasis in sex. And our private, and how good we think we are sometimes and good we think we put in this--let's call a spade a spade, we put a whole lot of emphasis on it and whole lot of these brothers here ain't doing shit.
Courtney: [laughs]
Anthony: You know, let's...hey, we all gotta learn somewhere, sometime, we all gotta be educated. I done have my moments, it is what it is. But in this particular space here, you know, you need that sexual health because [clears throat] you know, for your mental health because you know the moment you get some, you know, some hard news to swallow like this, that's gonna mess with your mental and that's gonna shake you to your core. And you need to be strong enough to be able to deal with that and have someone strong enough, strong enough of a partner in your corner to help build you back up. And it's going to take time, don't think, "Oh I'm down now, but two hours later I'm back." No, you're not. You're fooling yourself, you're gonna go through stages, you know, due to the stages of hurt, grief, anger, pain. Like, take your time and go through it. Get that out of your system. Don't feel like: "Oh I gotta rush this, I gotta get back to being me so my friends don't know what's going on." No. Be yourself. Your real friends, family, they're gonna be there for you regardless. So, don't cut yourself short, don't run shy from it. Express that. They need to know.
Courtney: All right...
Anthony: But yeah, your sexual health is your mental health and if, you know, even if you have it and you're trying to meet somebody, that's gonna cause up insecurities and that's directly to your mental. Just how my previous partners and my current partner, like, you know, "Hey, I want to date, but I have this going on so...you know, if I had a dating pool of 10 people, that's going out from like 10 to three now, so I gotta really be peaking. I gotta really be choosy then." You don't want to get into that desperate mindset of like: "Well, the person that wants me I'm gonna want them, and I'm gonna give them so much love and attention they don't want to leave because I don't want to be by myself." No! Because that person might not be the one. You've got to take that time. Is it going to be difficult? Absolutely. But do not give up. There is somebody for everybody. There is somebody out there for you, they are so much going to love you just for who you are, good, bad, indifferent. [Not someone who will] take your past, try and use it against you, because we all got a goddamn past. Everyone has done something stupid, I'm no different, they're no different, you're no different. Just be like: "Hey, this is who I am today, right here, right now. If you're gonna want me, love me, appreciate me, you gotta take me for who I am right here, right now. Past the mistakes, past all the fuck ups." Now that I'm educated, now that I know what I have to deal with, are you trying to deal with this with me? If you are, great. Let's do it. If you're not, no harm, no foul, move around, let me find someone who wants to deal with this with me. So I can be happy too.
Courtney: Let the congregation say, "Amen!" We just left the church. Anthony [laughs], man, I appreciate you, man. That's it! That's all I got for you. I appreciate you taking the time. Please let your girl now I said thank you, thank you so much for, uh--
Anthony: Well, my pleasure.
Courtney: --suggesting you to come on. And yeah, this is a great conversation, I appreciate you.
Anthony: Hey, like I said, my pleasure, man. I'm glad that I had [clears throat] excuse me, glad I could help. I hope this helps somebody out there, male or female, to understand, like, look, don't...like I said, don't give up. Don't think that any potential or any shot is just now gone. Mmm-mmm. There's somebody. You might have to look a little bit longer, look a little bit harder, but there is somebody out there. Just do not give up. You'll find them.
Courtney: Yeah. All right, well I'll touch base with you closer to the time this episode is gonna be released. I'll close this out, and then--yeah, if you've got any questions you can feel free to check in with me, I guess right after we hang up here.
Anthony: All right, man, well hey, like I said I enjoyed the conversation. Like I said I hope I can give you something that helps a lot.
Courtney: Absolutely. All right, my man, have a great night!
Anthony: All right, you do the same.
Courtney: That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Episode two of the Discordant Dating Series. I hope that you were able to get something out of this conversation. I know that what stood out to me the most is this idea that if you want something different, you gotta do something different. And speaking to a lot of people who are lavigating--lavigating [chuckles]--who are navigating herpes stigma, I think we don't take the time to assess any sort of behavioral patterns or compulsive thoughts, actions, that have probably been there even in association with our herpes diagnosis. Because that coming up to the surface, it just leaves us with: "All right, well what's the underlying behavior pattern? Underlying emotion? Underlying belief about us now that we are living with herpes?" If we don't challenge that with our behavior, which means disrupting whatever pattern it is that exists, and do something different, then we won't be able to have something different. And if we're not in the place where we have what we want or we're not doing what we want, we're not being who we want to be, then the closest thing that we have to any sort of change taking place is for us to change our behavior. So, this conversation with Anthony about wanting something different and having to do something different, I think that that's probably the greatest takeaway from this episode. If you haven't already, please like, rate, review, subscribe to and share this podcast. I hope that this can be something that is useful to people who are going to disclose to their sexual partners and give them something to be like a reference point for how to navigate receiving a herpes diagnosis. All right? And yeah, shout out to Anthony and his partner for their beautiful family. And I'm thankful for everyone who decided to be a part of this because I know that it'll be useful. Til next time, stay sex positive.