SPFPP 220: Discordant Dating Series - Stigma Ends Where Allyship Begins
Here we have the first of what I hope to be many shared experiences of people who have dated someone living with herpes while not having had symptoms or tested positive themselves. Our guest Laura shares what her experience has been dating someone non monogamously for more than a year.
On this episode we chat about how she received her partner’s status share as something sexy given the vulnerability that comes with sharing something so intimate. We also speak to how his confidence and communication skills may have contributed heavily to her decision to move forward compared to if he wasn’t confident disclosing his status to her. Another thing that came up in this portion of the podcast is her placing more value on their compatibility with one another as a whole rather than just on the potential limitations herpes may put on their potential for uninhibited sex.
It’s cool to hear Laura’s side of things and I hope this podcast can serve as a useful resource to discordantly dating couples where one person is positive for HSV whereas the other is negative or unaware of their status. Laura also speaks to advocating for her health with her doctor. As someone who is knowledgeable of health care providers’ resistance to herpes testing thanks to Dr. Evelin Dacker’s resources, Laura knew what to say and how to say it in order to get a herpes test for herself regardless of its accuracy.
Laura’s experience is not to be reflective of every negative person in a discordant relationship. This is just something to expand our perspective. I hope the cluster of stories and experiences put together in this series not only encourage confidence for those who have a positive status to share, but also for people who are gathering information after having a positive status shared with them to just be receptive to allyship when it comes to herpes stigma.
Jimmy Kimmel is overdue for another herpes joke soon and I’d love to see allyship in the comments of his tweet from people who know someone who has herpes. I’ll be chillin at my work station smiling as I make a post about it when it happens :)
Jokes aside, I’m proud of this series and everyone who’s offered to show up to be part of it. I think it helps to see how some disclosures are received and how decisions are made to move forward with potential partners herpes or not. The concern and fear around herpes is often rooted in stigma which is rooted in ignorance. You’ll hear how Laura intelligently communicates about her experiences not just with her partners but also in her own personal life as she educated herself that this is a key factor in choosing to be intimate with or in relationship with someone despite STI status.
Something Positive for Positive People Episode 220: Discordant Dating Series-Stigma Ends Where Allyship Begins
March 11, 2022
Courtney: Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is 501c3 non profit organization that connects people who are struggling with the challenges of herpes stigma to support resources, such as communities, support groups, and mental health resources. I am on Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr, and Reddit, but most active on Instagram at "h on my chest". And if you've been a long time listener and you haven't yet, please like, rate, review, subscribe to this podcast. It really helps with, not only exposure of getting these stories and experiences out there, but it also helps with being able to bring in people to the show who want to add something to it. I am on Venmo and Cash App at CourtneyBrame, if you want to make donations. That's CourtneyBrame, all one word. PayPal is just PayPal dot com slash S P F P P, and Patreon slash S P F P P as well. And that's just an acronym for Something Positive for Positive People. I want to welcome anyone who's taken the chance to listen to this podcast today to this series. This series of episodes are gonna revolve around the experience of someone who is either negative for, uh–has not experienced any physical symptoms of, or is unaware of–their herpes status. And we're talking about dating people who have herpes.
So, this is the first installment of--depending on how many podcast episode guests I can get to come forward and share their experiences. And I'm looking forward to this, like I put a call out on my social media pages for people who have dated people who have herpes and who are either negative or unaware of their status or haven't had any symptoms that are known of to date. To be able to offer this as, like, a resource for--if you're someone who is wanting to disclose or you just disclosed your status to a partner, shared your status with a partner...I'm trying to get away from using “disclosure"--this would be an episode series that you can share with that potential partner, so that they can hear from someone who has dated someone who lives with herpes, because they may not be aware of that even being a possibility. It might be outside of their ranges of perspective. So, I'm hoping that this will serve as a very useful resource and tool. While it's not rooted in science, it's rooted in the experiences of the people who are impacted by or navigating stigma directly. So, I am going to stop talking so much and I am going to start incorporating our guest into the conversation, Laura. Laura, how are you feeling right now?
Laura: I'm feeling really good. Hi, it's nice to be here.
Courtney: Thank you. I want to first thank you for responding to my call in from people who've dated people with herpes. And your enthusiasm about this was really magnetic, and I am...I'm not even sure where to start, like [chuckles] my first question is what made you agree to this interview? Let's start there.
Laura: Oh gosh, um...there's a few reasons. I always love to share my story, and to, like, share it in a way that could be helpful to other people, and make other people feel more connected, you know, that is really exciting to me. And I just generally feel like I have benefited so much from sex positivity from, kind of having a more liberated lens around body, dating, sex, really all aspects of my life. And, like, I feel so grateful for the people who have taught me about that, the lessons that I have gained from that. So if I can kind of help connect other people or inspire other people to, like, maybe do some reflection, that's so cool and I'm excited about that.
Courtney: All right, thank you! So, how'd you find out about this opportunity? We can go there next.
Laura: Um, Facebook! I follow you on Facebook.
Courtney: Oh, shit! I didn't [laughs] realize that you followed me. Uh...[chuckles] I know we didn't date, but like, have you, um, were you connected to any of the herpes support groups at all? Just out of curiosity, like how'd you end up friends with me or following me on Facebook?
Laura: Yeah, yeah, how did we connect. Um, it was...I also am--I don't know if I'm friends or if I follow, um--Evelin Dacker?
Courtney: Oh, ok!
Laura: Uh-huh, so, I um...several years ago, I went to, um, like a retreat that had a big sex-positive focus, and she was speaking there and I think she was maybe presenting her STARS talk, or was part of some kind of consent focus workshops. And so, I saw her there and appreciated her and have kind of been, you know, sort of connected to maybe some communities that Evelin is connected. I don't know if you want to tell people more about her work?
Courtney: Oh yeah, [laughs] we are very familiar with Dr. Evelin Dacker's work. Episode 99, "Integrative Disclosure", it incorporates Evelin's STARS talk into how to share your status with a potential partner. And it also includes--and not just S T I status--but also what turns you on, uh, the avoids, potential turn-offs, relationship intention. And then safety, like emotional safety, physical safety, and what your needs are. So, if you want to check that out, that's episode 99. I think we might need to bring her back on here and reintroduce it in a way that it's evolving, because it is. And I'm fortunate to be able to be a part of that process, because she's on my board! Whoo-whoo! Shout out to my board members! All right. So let's start with your first exposure to herpes. What was some of the earliest information that you had about herpes?
Laura: Hmm...interesting. Um, yeah...I didn't really think of it in this way at the time, but like, you know, growing up my best friend always got cold sores. And I had a partner for a long time who also got cold sores. And it was, it wasn't really something I worried about. I shared–not when they had a cold sore–but like, I wouldn't think twice about sharing a beverage with my friend or my former partner at the time. So, in that way it was maybe, like, a little bit normalized for me. And then I guess, you know, fast forwarding, you know I think I was aware that herpes was a thing you didn't want to get. I remember an experience in high school of--maybe I was in college--but someone who I, like, knew from high school a little bit, like a friend told me a story that someone had given her herpes and it was like very “tragic”. It was like… "ug, that's so scary and terrible that that happened.” So I think I had that sort of view of it at that time. But I think through some of the work that I was doing, you know, maybe like five-ish years ago now, trying to feel less shame and more freedom around my own sexual health and sexual choices, I learned about...I went to some consent workshops and stuff like that and I learned about, like, a different frame for understanding S T Ds. This frame that's like, "These are organisms that live in our body, there's many organisms that live in our body and there is important information for you to know about that." And that is true of many experiences, including herpes, but not limited to that. And I think also learning, too, about the way that the pharmaceutical industry wants to make us afraid–wants to make us fearful–to drive profits. And how that is true in so many places in our lives. So, that's when I kind of started to learn about herpes–in, like, a different context, a more accurate context–maybe, like, five years ago.
Courtney: OK. Now, when your friend told you that they had herpes or that they–was it that this friend from high school, that you knew in high school, but was in college with–did they tell you someone gave them genital herpes?
Laura: I never spoke with them directly, right? It was with my other friends--
Courtney: Oh!
Laura: --like, it was a friend we had in common. Our friend had this bad experience where this, like, shitty dude, like, gave her this--
Courtney: Okay, Okay.
Laura: – "scary illness.”
Courtney: All right. Now, in between that experience and then, dating, like–had you had conversations with partners about S T I status, getting tested, or any of those types of dialogue before the experience where you had a partner who informed you about their herpes status?
Laura: Um, not really. No, I was in a basically monogamous relationship for a long time; that was with the partner who has the cold sores. And so, it just, like, wasn't part of my life. But that relationship ended and I started dating non monogamously two years ago. And so I started really, like, skilling up and you know, having those conversations.
Courtney: OK. Now, having ended that relationship and then going into dating non monogamously, there are now conversations that need to be had. And you said that you were in different consent workshops, retreats, and things like that. So, it sounds like you were given a lot more education around sexual discussion, period, and navigating negotiations and communicating about relationship styles. And so, after...how much of this--I guess I'm curious to know if you had anyone, while dating non monogamously tell you, "Oh, I had an S T I before" or, was this even a conversation?
Laura: Yeah. So I think you're right, like I think I feel--I feel really lucky because I kind of…when this became relevant I was already–I think taught really well and given a lot of support around disrupting stigma and coming from a values aligned place. So I had that foundation in place, I had that good learning. And then, um, you know, I got on a dating website and the first person who, like, was a good fit for me, who seemed super cool, um, we started...I'm trying to think...I think we went on a date and I really liked him and maybe we like kissed or whatever, there was no sexual contact. And then he um, later on disclosed to me--shared with me, via text--about his positive, um, genital H S V status. And so he told me over text and he shared with me that he had that, that he very rarely has outbreaks, that he takes a daily antiviral to control that, and maybe some more information about that.
Courtney: OK. How did you receive that text message? What were you doing, what was happening in your brain when you saw that text message? What was your response?
Laura: Hmm. [sighs] Yeah, I think I took it in a pretty chill way. Because again, and I kind of think...I had this...idea that it really wasn't that big of a deal or that much of a barrier, like, already. And...so I think I...thought about it but...I, like, received that information in a pretty chill way. Things became a little bit more complicated later, but I was like, "Cool, thank you for telling me, yeah I'm, like, aware that there's a lot of stigma that's messed up and I'm excited to talk with you more about that and see what makes sense for us. Something along those lines."
Courtney: OK! So, after that, you said that you were dating non monogamously. So were you seeing other people around the time of you
making the decision to move forward with this person who has informed you that they have genital herpes?
Laura: Um...[sighs] not really, I mean I think I was dating other people a little bit. We dated for um...like almost...you know, two years, during a lot of the pandemic. And we just really hit it off. So I was kind of dating people at the margins but you know, we became partners and that was, like, a pretty serious relationship and I don't think that...also, at that time I guess...so, I was like, when I did learn that, I was unsure of what it meant for me regarding dating other people. And I'm so glad we're doing this podcast now because I really was looking for, like–what do people who have partners who are positive for H S V do with their other partners? And what is my responsibility to disclose or to share that information? I did some different things to try and answer that question, but I actually...basically at that time when I first started I was like, "If no one is asking me, it's not my responsibility to share that." And I actually...I do that differently now.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Laura: But that was my thinking at the time.
Courtney: All right. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I speak with a bunch of different people about this, and it typically is more of a concern for people who are primary partners. So, let's say--or polyamorous. So, you have two partners, one has genital herpes and the other person hasn't shown symptoms, hasn't tested positive, or has tested negative. And they're both in this relationship, and the negative partner has other partners. When it's more--and this is in my experience and conversations that I've had--whenever it's more consistent, it's like, there has to be sort of this, "OK" from...it has to be an "OK" from the partner who has herpes to disclose on their behalf because you now have to say, "All right, well, I'm seeing someone who does have herpes", if you choose to go that route. Like, there are a number of ways that people navigate this. If you're in a relationship and there is no one else who has herpes but you want to introduce someone into your relationship structure who does have herpes, now you have to sort of get approval from your existing partners because that is a risk, right, of potentially exposing them. So there's also that route that you can go. But, I'm finding that in more non monogamous relationship structures that this kind of conversation is just one to be had. There's so many different responses, but everyone appears to be OK with communicating and everyone's, like, "risk aware" at baseline. Not to say that everyone's OK with it or everyone's gonna be like, "Oh, no, how dare you! I don't want to get herpes, like, I'm dodging this as long as I can." There's more than understanding, education, knowledge, and just overall acceptance of, "All right, well this is just something that comes with it. I'm glad that they told me rather than us getting it and finding out."
Laura: Mmm-hmm.
Courtney: Because this is something that can disrupt trust in a relationship if, you know, you're with someone and then all of a sudden you don't know that, you think that a person may have cheated and gotten herpes or that they may have stepped outside of the boundaries of the relationship. So, there is just so much to be said for the communication that now has to take place. There's not a right or wrong way of navigating this. You either communicate about it or you're not communicating about it.
Laura: Mmm-hmm.
Courtney: And I think that that's probably the best way to articulate it. Like, I can't imagine before I had herpes, specifically asking people, "Hey, have you
been tested for S T Is and herpes?" or "Have you had sex with anyone who has herpes?" Because if we get into that much detail, how many people are we gonna really be saying "no" to because we're afraid of being exposed to herpes? Because everyone--if you've--statistically speaking–had sex with six different people who've had sex with six different people who've had sex with six different people--everyone, at some point, was exposed to herpes. So, if I knowingly had sex with someone who had herpes prior to my diagnosis, and a partner asks me that, and I was like, "Well yeah" and they were like, "Ah, no thanks, I'm not gonna do this." Then...I don't think that person who ever get laid [laughs] unless they're like, hunting for first timers or something like that [laughs].
Laura: Right. But it is, I think that there's--it's tricky, right? So I kind of had that opinion in my like...like, I read some Dan Savage that was kind of suggesting that you should just assume that everybody that you're sleeping with has slept with somebody who has herpes. And so I was like, "OK, I don't feel that I have that personal responsibility to share about someone else's health status.” However, I ended up getting into a relationship with somebody else. This person also gets cold sores and takes antivirals for that. But I didn't share that information with him, kind of operating under that idea. I don't know, there was some stuff that happened where I did choose to share with him that my partner does [have herpes]. And I think the difference is, it's like, there's a difference between saying, like, "Yeah, I slept with somebody one time a month ago and I don't know their status" versus saying, "I am having sex with somebody twice a week who is positive.” Right? That's a different risk calculation. And so I did end up telling this to my--not my partner who has genital herpes--to my other partner and he, um...he was ups--he took that very well, but he was kind of hurt and angry that I did not share with him, that my other partner did [have genital herpes] and I think his--what he told me about that was that he just feels that that is information that, he...like, I could have suspected that he would wanna know that information. Right? And so I don't need his approval to do anything, but that he felt that he deserved to be informed about the status of my other partner.
Courtney: What you just shared is so interesting, because you could have slept with someone a month ago and not known their status, but because you're sleeping with someone who's aware of their status and you're knowingly taking whatever precautions that you two have agreed to--now, feel free to hit me with a throat chop sign–but are you able to share whether or not you and your partner who had herpes used barriers?
Laura: We did not. We did for awhile at the beginning, but after, like, a few months into our relationship, we didn't use condoms or another kind of barrier.
Courtney: OK. Thank you for sharing that.
Laura: Like, he took the antiviral and, you know, if he ever had a symptom–which, you know, one time he did–we refrained from having sex, but no, we did not use condoms or barriers.
Courtney: OK. Thank you. I guess like, well, with this new partner, it's...I'm curious to know what his perspective might have been, because it's just like you said, you could have had sex with someone who didn't know their status a month ago, and now you're having sex with someone who's aware of their status and you're taking the precautions. And also this is someone who has herpes already, he just gets it orally. So, the response here, like the differentiation between, "Oh, I get cold sores" versus "Oh, someone blew me, or went down on me, and gave me genital herpes because they have cold sores", it's like this whole, "Oh, no, no, I'd never do that" or "I'm much better than that type of person", it's no different! Except for the location.
Laura: Well, I think what is the difference that I think is important, is, you know, if I sleep with someone one time--you know, I'm in the practice of getting regular–every three months–S T D checks. Usually if I'm starting…if I'm beginning a sexual relationship with somebody new I will get tested and ask them to do the same. Having the risk of exposure to a single, sexual encounter versus again, like, having sex with somebody twice a week, you know, for a year, I think is like a different level of risk.
Courtney: Let me ask you this: do you regularly get tested for herpes as well, knowing that you're sexually active with someone who has herpes?
Laura: I have learned to ask. But yeah.
Courtney: OK. How often do you get the test done and is it a blood draw that they do for you?
Laura: Yup. It is a blood draw. And I mean I've...I think that I've gotten tested for herpes three times in the past year or something like that.
Courtney: OK. I was just curious. Were you met with any resistance? Like, how are you able to get tested so frequently for herpes? A lot of people I talk to, their doctors don't wanna test because of the emotional impact or inaccuracy of tests or the expensive costs of it. And they--what's common is that there's resistance to testing people for herpes. So how are you able to get three tests in a year?
Laura: Mmm-hmm. Because I learned how to advocate for myself [laughs]. Thank you, Dr. Evelin [laughs], and to work that folks like you are doing. But um, I think when I told my doctor that I have a partner who is positive, they were like--what I think Dr. Evelin told me to say was just that I sleep with multiple people and that--I think CDC recommends that testing is appropriate for people who have more than one partner. So to let them know that and they can justify the expense of that that way. And also then telling them that, you know, I have this specific partner who has a specific health status. I didn't get push back when I shared that.
Courtney: Ohh, OK! Thank you for that formula. Shout out to Dr. Dacker, killing the game! [laughs] It's interesting because people who have herpes will share that with providers, like, "Well, I would like to know what type it is" or "I'm about to be intimate with someone who doesn't have it and.." or, that they might have been exposed to it, and doctors will say something like, "Just wear condoms" or "Just don't have sex during an outbreak." So it's interesting, again, just this experience from the other side now is phenomenal. Because I think that you going into it, knowing what to say, how to say it, who to say it to, and having had the education that you've had, like you're a much more well equipped person. You might be the kind of person that doctors hate, or are afraid of [laughs], because you know your shit! Whereas someone who's just wanting to know what their status is–because they've slept with someone with herpes–is kind of being dismissed. And then, like, I don't know that people really know what to do beyond a doctor being like, "Aww, naw, it's OK." It's kind of like sales.
Laura: Yeah! For sure, and it wasn't my experience with my normal doctor or nurse practitioner or whatever, it wasn't very good. And she made some comment about when I was testing again, she was like, "OK, yeah, we'll see if you've been converted yet."
Courtney: Damn!
Laura: I think that, well, she said that.
Courtney: I mean that's kind of funny, but [laughs], is that appropriate? I think, like--
Laura: So, yeahh--
Courtney: It felt judgmental, not like--
Laura: It felt judgmental.
Courtney: Ahh.
Laura: I did ask her about my choice to not have condoms and you know, it's like, we had some reasons for not--I'm not against condoms or barriers, but--there were some challenges there that made it...[sighs], made it desirable to not use them. And you know, she said that that was risky, but she wasn't super pushy about it. But I really struggled to understand, really, like what is the risk without condoms, and that is actually why I…It was also during the pandemic and it was hard getting an in-person visit. So I, um...like, Dr. Dacker, you can book her for a telehealth session, basically. And so I was just like, "I need--" and I like, I really wanted to get advice from someone who was sex positive, who had the values that I have, and who could help me understand, like...because I was reading these statistics about, like, percentages and...but they're all...you know, the people in those studies are not in my exact situation. So I really asked Dr. Dacker, like...I wanted to understand that thing about risk over time. It's like, OK, this is the risk of a one time encounter, but what if I'm in a relationship for one year, two years, five years, what is the likelihood of...like, does the likelihood go up? And...and I mean I think the answer to that is yes [laughs]. But also I made the choice at that time that that was a risk that I was, like, that I felt OK about.
Courtney: Just chiming in. From what I've learned is that the longer a person has had herpes– and without symptoms, let's say that–then the longer--or I'm sorry--the more challenging it is for them to pass on the virus. And the less likely they are to have outbreaks, or their frequency of outbreaks decreases over time. So, there's two parts to that: I would assume that over time from that perspective, yeah, the risk decreases, right? But if over time you get more and more comfortable and you start, just, you know, having spontaneous, unprotected sex, maybe when someone's a little bit under the weather and immune systems are down a little bit, like you said, [during the] pandemic we're not socializing and getting germs and bacteria and viruses from other people, building our immune systems and, if we do, it's more than likely we're exposed to Covid. And now, like, our immune function is combating that and now we have an opportunity for herpes to be less resistant in its attempt to reproduce. So, speaking from that standpoint--I'm not a scientist, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nurse practitioner--this is just coming from what makes sense, because so much of the information that's out there is inconsistent. And it's not applicable to your situation and speaking to discordant couples. I would really like to see more of that kind of representation, and not just in heterosexual relationships, but speaking to same sex relationships, or what about even with group sex scenarios.
The data that's out there, we see male to female or penis to vagina, but I think something to take into consideration is, what kind of contact is being had? Is there direct skin to skin contact or is there barrier-ed contact, and how does that reduce the transmission rate? I'm hoping to be able to do some study alongside a University of some sort. Like, I have access to the people who would be willing to participate, it's just a matter of getting the resources and the funding to back it up. I've done surveys, I've done...yeah, surveys, because that's all I can do [chuckles], I've done polls, and I have information and people who are willing to put themselves in a place to get this information, but it's just challenging for me to find someone who is willing to fund it and do it. So, the intention [chuckles] to acquire this information is out there, I just don't think that there's enough of a social push behind us in order to make this happen. And again, part of that is just due to stigma, like how many people who are OK in their status with their diagnosis, how many people are OK to the point where they don't need a cure or a vaccine or anything to advocate for because they've learned to manage it. So they don't have any reason to be in this space, they don't have any reason to share their stories, they don't have any reasons to advocate or be like, "I have herpes and I need something" and they're not in these communities to know that there are so many other people who are navigating this challenge.
Laura: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, yeah--
Courtney: Speaking of--
Laura: Like, I'm so appreciative of your efforts, right? Because we...from my perspective, you know, when people…like really understanding those…what are the different...the benefits, the consequences, the risks, you know, all of that information is so helpful to making an informed choice. Things are less scary and stigma is reduced when we understand what's really likely or possible.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm. I would like to take it back a little bit to your choice to move forward with the person who disclosed their positive status to you. So, for you it wasn't a big deal, you mentioned that. You didn't use these words, but something along the lines of your compatibility being there. Right? So, you liked this person, basically. What are some of the judgments, or...what's your approval process for a person that you're gonna move forward with sexually?
Herpes aside, what are some of the things that you look for in a partner prior to having sex with them?
Laura: Hmm..
Courtney: Or moving forward in a relationship?
Laura: Mmm-hmm. Well, I love that he told me and I love how he told me. I actually thought that doing it over text was was, like, really nice. And I don't know if you advocate for this, but I've seen you showing some great examples of people disclosing via text. But it was really nice, right, because it gave me the information in a clear way. And then it gave me also space to process it, and, like, really take that in. It wasn't, like, this intense face to face moment. I could think about it and think about how I wanted to respond thoughtfully and you know, he delivered it thoughtfully, so that to me is just like a huge...that to me builds so much trust, that shows me that you are honest, you are communicative and considerate, like, you are doing all of the homework around this that I'm wanting to do too.
Courtney: Yeah, thank you for that. And navigating the relationship, has there been a fear of you getting it? Has there been any sort of, like, thoughts in the back of your mind that keep you from being present when you're sexually active or when you have been sexually active with this person?
Laura: Um...yeah. I think there was a couple of things. One is that I like, you know, I was dating multiple people. Having sex with multiple people after that not being my life for a long time, I started to get some other sexual health things, like yeast infections and bacterial vaginosis. So I started having irritation and discomfort that was kind of off and on. And so that made me, like, paranoid, I guess, you know? And I was like, "OK, I think this is just a yeast infection, but like, what if, what if?" you know, like, "Is that...could this be?" So that sometimes was there for me.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Laura: And I think the other thing that, um, came up for--so, like, we started–we were not using condoms for a time, and then I had that experience with my other partner. And I want to say, to my other partner's credit, they were distressed that I did not share with them but they didn't break up with me over that, we just continued...you know, we had sex, we used condoms and that was OK. But I think I started to think, like, maybe I do want to use condoms with my partner who has H S V. Like, maybe that would--or I would at least like to feel like I have the option to do that. And so I broached that with him, with my partner who has H S V. And I think that was a hard conversation. I think that he expressed just feeling hurt or maybe a little bit devalued, like I might want to use barriers together. But we communicated through that and he was like, "OK, if that's what you want, if that's what you need, then I'm, like, willing to do that."
Courtney: Mmm-kay.
Laura: And I feel like that resolved in a pretty good way.
Courtney: OK! I have two questions, and they're gonna--each one is gonna take us in a different direction. My first one is, what's the difference between having sex with someone who has not shared a positive H S V diagnosis with you versus someone who has not?
Laura: With someone who has versus someone who has not?
Courtney: Yeah, so, let me rephrase that. So, you have a partner who's been like, "Hey, I have herpes, here's the deal, here's what we need to do." And then I'm curious to know if there's a difference between having sex with that person, given the situation of them having herpes versus anyone else, as far as you know who "doesn't"--and I use air quotes when I say "doesn't have herpes"--or they just haven't disclosed. Like, are you in your head about, "Oh, it's possible that they have something and I might get something?", like, is there any sort of freedom that comes with seeing someone who doesn't--or who hasn't--disclosed a positive status to you versus who has, or what?
Laura: Hmm, I'm thinking. You know, I think I've...I haven't been 100% perfect, but, for the vast majority of times that I am...before I have sex with somebody, you know, I'm asking them questions about their recent test and then I'll...you know I've had this experience where they’re like, "Oh yeah, I'm like, clean." And, you know, I might talk about maybe using different words for that, and also, like, "Did you get tested for herpes?" Because that's not part of the normal panel, and most people have been like, "Oh no, I didn't know that." And, yeah, I guess I haven't...if someone hasn't had any symptoms, I haven't asked that they go back and figure that out. That feels safe enough to me, if someone hasn't had symptoms. But I think I haven't--I don't know, I mean I think with my partner, like when communication is good, when trust is there, it's not really on my mind about that.
Courtney: I'm so happy you said that, because I was like, "Damn, I'm gonna have to ask this question the vulgar way", which was like, "Do you not let him stick it all the way in or–", like those kinds of things [laughs] is what I meant. So, there's no difference--
Laura: Mmmm, oh no.
Courtney: --there's no difference in how you have sex with your partner who you know is aware of their herpes status versus anyone else, like there aren't any restrictions of, "Oh no, no, no, no, don't--you can't, you can't--like, that part of the penis isn't covered, so you can't let that touch me."
Laura: Hmmm, [inaudible]. No, that never crossed my mind once and I think, he told me, he was like, "I'm really paying attention for if I'm having those prodromal symptoms." And you know, I really let him be responsible for that. We have, like, a super vital, creative, pleasurable, sexual connection and relationship that I'm just so grateful I got to have. I'm so grateful that stigma didn't get in the way of like what we got to share together--
Courtney: That's good.
Laura: --it really did not cross my mind to, like, be nervous during sex.
Courtney: OK, thank you. I always tell people, you know, dating with herpes is just like dating. You still deal with the compatibilities and incompatibilities of all types of life factors, such as where you want to live, or if you want to travel, if you want children, marriage, politics, spirituality, religion, income levels, there are so many things to take into consideration and it sounds like, to me, that more of the compatibilities outside of sexuality or sexual health status had more weight than him being like, "Yeah, I have herpes." So, like, you--[sighs] let me rephrase that, I don't know how I butchered that, I say it so often--but, the quality of your compatibilities outside of the ability to merge genitals risk free, that had more weight to it than your freedom of being able to have sex without, quote, consequences.
Laura: Yeah, and you know, uh, sex is risky business, you know? It's just...there's only safer choices. And so yeah, I think our compatibility outside of that, but also our compatibility within that, and the way that he communicated it to me, like the upfront, straightforward, self responsible, self-aware…that, to me, was, like--that's a place where I felt really joined and well met. We both have the same values that we are living out and around, around sex positivity, informed consent, and that good stuff.
Courtney: Had he disclosed to you without that confidence and if he didn't make you feel the way that he made you feel and give you that space to have your own feelings, do you feel like your reaction could have been different?
Laura: Um, yeah, you know, what? Probably. I think that I was...yeah, lucky, in that he has both experience with non monogamy as well as with this kind of conversation. I was kind of new to that, and I thought him being really up front and having communicated about sex and about his partnerships and relationships and so, I think that did make me feel safe and it also made it feel, like, really normal.
Courtney: Yeah. That emotional safety is so overlooked by people. I think that, you know, we look for physical safety as in, you know, getting consent and making sure that you can be in physical space with someone. But the emotional vulnerability that comes with sharing something, like, "Hey, I have this stigmatized condition and it could potentially impact you, but I'm telling you this because I want to get closer to you." For that invitation to welcome you in closer versus making you run away…because that is a reality, some people just don't want herpes, which is perfectly fine. I got the shit and I don't want it [laughs]. And then you have, you know, the possibility of, like...it's always possible that you could get it. And I'm curious to know, are you prepared for that or do you feel like you're equipped with the tools to navigate that? Are you confident in possibly getting herpes or testing positive or having that first symptom? Do you feel like you are equipped with the tools you need to navigate it?
Laura: I am not confident, to be honest, and I think when I was having other sexual health issues and I was waiting on those results and being like, "What if that's--what if I'm having these issues because I, you know, because I, like, "got converted-- "
Courtney: [laughs]
Laura: --like what the doctor said to me. It really made me be like, "OK, like what--how much am I ready to live out these values?" Like, what if--will I feel incredibly regretful if that is the case and will I feel like I would have wished that I'd made different choices?
[extended pause]
Courtney: Ohhhh...oh, I thought I lost you! You froze! [laughs] OK, you said, "made different choices" was the last thing I heard. Go on.
Laura: Hmm. Yeah, I mean I wish I had, like, an easy answer there, and it's...I don't, and I talked--
Courtney: Listen--
Laura:--to a friend of mine, who was like, "There's our values and there's our emotional…thing, and they both matter and so I'm, like, not...I'm not sure how the conversation would feel different, you know?
Courtney: Yeah!
Laura: Like, just to be super honest. Like, if, if I were to test positive or if I were to have some symptoms.
Courtney: Mmm-kay. And that's what I want here, like, I want the realness. I don't want you to try and, you know, sound good for my sake or any of the listener's sake. I want you to be honest. And these are real things, people navigate these emotions. I know whenever I disclose to someone, I expect for them to have their feelings. I've disclosed to someone and we've had sex and then later she's been like, "I don't want herpes." And that's OK, I have to respect that, and it's, you know, like, in the moment there are feelings that are associated with it. But I tell everyone, you know, there's two people on the sides of those conversations. You are welcome to have whatever reaction that you are gonna have within yourself, and I am too. Like, we just don't need to be assholes [laughs] to one another about it. Like, I'm not gonna be like, "Well, fuck you then, you bitch! You don't wanna have sex with me because I got herpes? [exclaims] You probably already got it!" Like, I wouldn't respond like that and I don't expect for you to be like, "Ew, you got herpes? Like, how dare you, you probably got it from some slut you had sex with in the back of a dumpster", whatever [laughs] stigmatization or stigmatizing statements come with that. I know that I have one more question for sure. I don't know where this is gonna take us, but we're at the forty six minute mark, and this cuts off, it's a hard cut off at an hour, like I'm not paying for the [laughs] I'm not paying for the extended version, but it's good to have these at an hour anyway. I would like to know, um...damn. Of course I forget what my question was [laughs].
Laura: [laughs]
Courtney: [sighs]
Laura: I think I like...I think what I do want to say about, as I'm thinking about what we were talking about before, you know, I think with the learning that I have done is that I made that choice to not use condoms with that partner–which made sense to me at the time, and I don't regret it–but I think for the future, looking forward, I probably would not make that choice again. I would, like, want to use, you know, barriers. Unless it was like, a lifelong...or you know, unless I was like, "OK, I'm going to be with this person for, you know, I'm imagining a really long future with this person”, and then maybe that would shift.
Courtney: Thank you, you just refreshed my mind on what I wanted to ask you. So, I guess your desire for long term or short term, did that come into play when deciding whether or not to move forward with this person? Like, were you looking at, "Oh, you know, I can see myself being with this person for awhile, so yeah, I'm OK with the risk" or was there a--or was there even anything about that like that, like, played in your mind? Short term, long term, did that even matter? Or was it just about being with this person because you liked this person?
Laura: Hmm. You know, it started out as like I...being with this person, I like this person, and I just…I wanna just really enjoy this great relationship. But I will say, and this is, like, such a funny thing I think about relationships, is that, you know, after a period of time, I was kind of like, "OK, yeah, this person is like really awesome and great, and I still think that he's really awesome and great, still someone I care about a lot–”
Courtney: You ain't gotta say that because he might listen to this [laughs]. Laura: [laughs]
Courtney: I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding [laughs].
Laura: [laughs] “--Um, but that like this is not, maybe this isn't a relationship that I want to be in forever”, you know I just like started, we kind of just...we're not connecting in the ways that I wanted to connect. And I was kind of like, "Hmm, this isn't feeling right." But you know, the way that that manifested to me was like in my brain...it was like, a little judge-y, a little picky. Part of me of was like, "Mmmm, I'm not sure" and that happened about a lot of things, but it did...it changed the way that I just emotionally felt about that risk. It just like didn't feel...I just didn't feel as solid about that as our relationship kind of, like, changed. Does that make sense?
Courtney: That does, yeah. So, repeating back what I heard from you is that in the beginning, it was just like, exciting, it was cool, it was--and it had potential and now you've gotten to the point where you see where that potential is, it's healthy, but it's not exactly what it is that you want. So it's kind of like this "I want this" versus "I want this with you". I think those are two different things, like..."Here's what I want out of life overall, big picture" and then "Here I am being present right now" and "Here's what I want from you based on A) what I think you're capable of or B) what you've shared with me and where our compatibilities lie.” Is that kind of in the ballpark?
Laura: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.
Courtney: OK. Damn, I can't believe I dissected that so well [laughs]. My last question for you is--on this podcast, a regular theme and statement that's made, and I try to ask all my guests this--but I'm curious to know what you think of this statement: Sexual health is mental health.
Laura: Hmmm. I mean they're hugely interconnected. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm a somatic therapist. I really believe in the body and its living wholeness, right? That includes mind, that includes our mental health, our spirit, and our tissues and our organs, you know? And the other organisms that we share these bodies with sometimes. So, right, I mean I feel that, like, I feel the way that those sexual health and mental health are deeply interconnected.
Courtney: Perfect. Because I feel that way too, and whenever I'm explaining it to people I'm like, "Sexual health is mental health" is like the attention grabber but then I'm like, "Yeah, they're interconnected, because..." and then I speak to a lot of the challenges that people face around their sexuality as it affects their communication skills with other people. And people who listen to this podcast here have heard that so much [laughs] by at this point. Laura, I want to thank you for just, your allyship. Like, I think that your experience is gonna help other people be able, at the very least, become allies. My hope is that people who plan to disclose to someone are willing to share this as a resource. Like, of course it'd be great to have a cure for herpes, it'd be great to have a vaccine for people who don't have herpes so that we can eliminate the risk of potentially passing it on to them. But, the reality is, like, I don't know how far we are from that. When I first started this podcast, there was always a cure on the way or "We're working towards a cure, we're doing research!" And I'm on my ninth year having this shit and [laughs] there is not a cure. I'm still seeing the same messages, I'm still hearing the same things. But we may not have a cure, but we have communication.
And that's what I feel is important for us: to be able to exchange dialogue, share these experiences that we have, on either side of the spectrum, whether it be awareness of a positive status or unawareness of a status in general. So, yeah, I like that this series of podcasts is going to go in depth with people who have dated someone with herpes. And yeah, while this is the first one, I hope to have, like, my own perspective expanded as I go into a couple of other interviews and be able to just get something out of this that can support people in feeling more confident in disclosing their status because I think that stigma ends where allyship starts. So, the more Lauras we get out there in the world, who are willing to welcome and receive our disclosures and be able to step up and do something like this, like we get more people who can combat your Jimmy Fallon or Kimmel, whichever one it is, I think it's Kimmel, Jimmy Kimmel's herpes jokes--
Laura: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Courtney: --I feel like he's gonna be doofin one of those real soon [laughs], so, I hope that a lot of people who don't have herpes are willing to step up and be like, "Hey man, that's not cool, I know somebody with herpes, dot dot dot." So, thank you.
Laura: Yeah, you are so welcome, and I, you know, and I'm so thankful for your work, and what I think what I wanna say about that is if I could just like communicate one thing to people who have herpes–and even the people who, particularly maybe people who don't–the world on the other side is so much better. Getting to feel liberated and honest and in control of your experience, it's so much better than being afraid and being isolated about it, you know, regardless of what your status is. So I just, like, really hope that…again, like, yeah, the self expression, the self responsibility–the orgasms that I have got to have– by [laughs] not letting this stigma or these really sick negative ideas that we have rule my life, is super worth it. So I hope that people feel supported enough to be brave, to show up for that solidarity, for that allyship. And I really appreciate all of your work done, and cultivating this beautiful community around that.
Courtney: Thank you. So much. I very much appreciate it. All right, that concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please follow me on Instagram at "h on my chest". You can subscribe to our Patreon page at Patreon dot com slash S P F P P. If you're out of the United States and you want to donate to support our efforts in continuing to connect people who are navigating herpes stigma to the resources that are available and mental health resources, community, support groups, then PayPal dot com slash S P F P P is the way to go. And if you're in the States, CourtneyBrame, Venmo, Cash App. And there are no special characters or spaces in between it. Don't be fooled out here, now! It's just CourtneyBrame, all one word: C O U R T N E Y B R A M E. And please like, rate, review, subscribe to this podcast, and share this with people! Like, get people to understand that there are people out there who are willing to date us. I know a lot of people in support groups who only date people who have herpes. I want people to--if that's going to be their decision, let that be their choice, but I don't want them to make that their choice because they feel like they have no other choice. So in sharing this podcast series, I hope that people are able to take this in and enhance their own perspective and see that hey! There are people who look at us beyond our herpes status, there are people who are looking for compatible partners, and the compatibilities often outweigh whatever it is that comes with the stigma of herpes and the potential of passing it on to a partner. So--
Laura: Yeah, don't deprive us of your sexiness, please--
Courtney: Ooh!
Laura: --positive people.
Courtney: Say that again, say that again!
Laura: [laughs] Don't deprive us, you know, the world, of your sexiness, please.
Courtney: Ahh! I like that.
Laura: Put yourself out there, we want you.
Courtney: Yeah! All right! Til next time. Stay sex positive.