SPFPP 222: Discordant Dating Series - Knowledge is Bliss
That phrase, ignorance is bliss has officially been cancelled. It’s ignorance that perpetuates stereotypes that keep unfavorable circumstances of the status quo uplifted. In this case, the status quo being that we don’t speak about the reality of potentially having already been exposed to herpes far before we either have someone share their positive status with us, or we present symptoms ourselves. How we respond to these scenarios is a direct reflection of how knowledgeable we are about not just herpes, not just sexual health, but also humanness of the human condition.
Paul is the symptom-free/negative half of a discordant relationship. At 51 years old, he speaks from wisdom of lived experiences that revolve around maturity and emotional intelligence. So what is it that made him decide to move forward when his partner shared her positive HSV status with him? It’s easy, knowledge. This wasn’t our guest’s first rodeo with a partner who was positive for herpes, but it was the second rodeo where a partner had disclosed that to him. He values the vulnerability that comes with sharing a positive HSV status over the risk of transmission.
I ask him some real questions such as “are you prepared to receive a diagnosis or have initial symptoms?” and he answered truthfully. No one willingly went out and chased down herpes. We all just ended up being exposed and having symptoms, or we are exposed. What I think I’m coming up with in these conversations is that it’s important to change the way we have conversations about connecting in general. If your values don’t align for whatever the nature of the connection with another person, whether short term or long term, don’t waste anyone’s time. Everyone can go their separate ways in pursuit of what IS in line with their values and also have a much more pleasant interaction.
We touch on some other compatibilities and incompatibilities as well. Paul is African American and dates/has dated the entire rainbow. We talk about how social interactions are influential to whether or not someone is a fit. Intelligence, emotional awareness, spirituality, and physical attractiveness are all parts of it, but there’s more. Look at mutual interests. This convo smoothly transitioned from finding community through mutual interests.
I’m part of a few herpes dating groups and I hear people sometimes say they only date “their kind” which can mean you have to have the same type of herpes, or in the same location, or just be someone who has herpes. While belonging based on a commonly shared diagnosis, that’s not a common interest necessarily. Connecting over herpes often presents us with this laser sharp focus on someone who gives us attention, or they’re just there. And I get it, that’s easy. They already understand the challenges, there’s no guilt about passing it on to them, but what else is there? We often overlook bright red flags that wave in our faces because we operate from a place of scarcity, but what happens when we realize there are people we’re more compatible with who we share interests with?
We touched on this because Paul met his partner “out in the wild” and during a pandemic. Kudos to you my man for that bravery. Before COVID, it was so weird to NOT meet someone online to date and I think now, the Pandemic has made it where we’re experiencing sort of this online dating fatigue. I remember talking to women who were weirded out by guys approaching them in social settings. Now, people are beginning to get tired of only dating online. We’re longing for something real, and in person. Despite the tension of walking up to a stranger in a social setting where you can only see the upper half of their face, there’s something exciting about this. Something primal. There’s a risk. That person may NOT be okay with you invading their 6 feet bubble, they may jump all over you because of a subconscious (or conscious) longing for that authentic style of connection.
I am glad I got to be reminded of this because at the time of this recording, I deleted my dating apps to force myself into human social interactions. I really only go to the gym and the grocery store since at this time COVID spiked again, but I’m really excited about the few people I’m seeing at the frequency I’m seeing them. But my man did challenge me to start teaching some in person Yoga classes as a way to meet people as well.
Circling back to the herpes…. See how easy it is? There’s just so much more to dating, connecting, and being with people than allowing a health diagnosis to dictate whether or not you move forward with someone intimately. I got super sidetracked talking about all the other touch points in this podcast episode I forgot that the point of this was for someone who doesn’t have herpes to get an inside look at the decision making process of someone who was just disclosed to.
Something Positive for Positive People Episode 222: Discordant Dating Series - Knowledge is Bliss
March 25, 2022
Courtney: Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame [laughs uproariously]. I just got a cavity filled in the left upper corner of my mouth and it's still numb. So when I talk, I--no one can, like, tell that I'm doing this, I covered my face up a little bit, but it's funny because it [laughs] just feels funny. I've been trying to make it through this without laughing in between talking, so [laughs]. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non-profit organization that connects people who are navigating herpes stigma to community resources, support, social groups, as well as mental health resources. [electronic device chimes] I don't know what that was. OK, that was my laptop. It should be off, I don't know why that happened. That's creepy, maybe I have a ghost. But, you can follow me on Instagram at H ON MY CHEST. You can visit W W W dot S P F P P dot org, in order to learn more about the organization and contribute if you wanna do [inaudible] interviews. Even if you wanna share your experience navigating herpes stigma or if you are in need of podcast episode recommendations, feel free to reach out. And my email there is just Courtney at S P F P P dot org. And I wanna welcome you to the third episode of The Discordant Dating Series. Yes, I gave it a name. Today we're going to be interviewing with Paul. And I'm gonna let Paul--I'll let you introduce yourself. Just start with your pronouns, any identifiers that you have: age, race, what's the, what's the--sexuality, heterosexual or pansexual or whatever it is that you wanna share, and then we'll go into the interview from there.
Paul: Awesome. So, Paul: cisgender, heterosexual, straight male. Pronouns: he/him. African-American...
Courtney: Per--
Paul: ...in the 50 year range [laughs].
Courtney: All right [chuckles]. Hey, you look good, man! You look good, I'm-- Paul: I'm 51, I look pretty good I think [laughs].
Courtney: Yeah, yeah, I'm--this is what I'm striving for. I'm striving to get like you [laughs].
Paul: [laughs] Good genes and a lot of biohacking [laughs].
Courtney: All right! Now, you are currently dating someone who is positive for herpes, and as far as you know you've not shown any symptoms nor have you tested positive for herpes yourself. Is that right?
Paul: That's correct.
Courtney: All right, so let's get into it. How were you disclosed to? How did your partner share her status with you?
Paul: My current partner? We just had an open conversation. Things were getting to the point where we knew we were going to be intimate, and she just said, "I gotta tell you something before we go there." And she shared with me her status and asked me how I felt about it. And because I have had a previous relationship--10 years ago or so, maybe 12 years ago, where I was with someone who was also positive--I had a pretty...I won't say in-depth, but certainly a grounding knowledge in herpes and understanding it, and how it works. And having navigated that before, I was pretty versed on it. So I didn't have a whole lot of--I didn't have any stigma attached to it, other than "thank you for telling me." And I have the ability to make my own choice whether I move forward or not. And I chose to move forward, having an understanding of what the virus is and how it affects individuals.
Courtney: All right. And what were some things that you took into consideration when making that decision to move forward? You said that you had already dated someone in the past, so this isn't your first rodeo, per se. But I'm curious to know if there were any other factors that contributed to you being like: "All right, well, that's not a big deal. Let's move forward."
Paul: Yeah. So, part of it is understanding the research, right? And understanding that if you start looking at [chuckles] the general population of people, well over ninety percent--and I'm probably being conservative here when I say this--but well over ninety percent of people probably either have been tested or probably have the virus. Right? And so, most of us could be walking around asymptomatic and never know it, and never have an outbreak, but can certainly pass it, right? And that's pretty much how it's been passed in the population of people. So, because I have been with someone in the past, and though I've tested negative after that relationship ended, that doesn't mean that I don't have it. It's just that I tested negative at that time. There was nothing to indicate that I had the virus, and I certainly never had an outbreak. So, you wouldn't be able to tell unless something happened. So I had a pretty good understanding of that. And she hadn't had an outbreak--I think maybe one, when she first got diagnosed but hadn't had one since. The time lapse between when she was notified and when we got together, it was pretty significant from my perspective. And understanding when someone's contagious and when someone's not contagious--understanding all of those types of things. Those are things I thought about, but I also kind of figured, you know what, I could have it and just not know it. I could be asymptomatic, then it's moot for me. And I've navigated this before, and if I really, truly feel the way I feel about this person, I'm not gonna let that hold me back. And that's kind of where I went with it.
Courtney: There you have it, folks, that concludes this--naw, I'm just kidding, I'm not gonna close this out there [laughs]. But that's the consistent thing in talking to people who are in discordant relationships. The negative partner or the partner who has not had symptoms: the education is key. And there seems to be a certainty in how it is that they feel about the other person. It's like: "All right, well this isn't gonna be the thing that gets in the way of us being able to be intimate with one another." And you're validating that here by sharing what you're experience is. It's about education and just that desire to be with someone. So, I'm curious to know: would there have been anything that would have altered your decision to move forward? Maybe in her presentation of how she disclosed or--yeah, let's start there. I don't wanna add too much to the question.
Paul: I mean that's a great question, you know? And I hadn't really thought about that. It's interesting because I had a partner before her. And I let my partner know before her: "Look, I've been with someone who has had herpes in the past. And I haven't had an outbreak. And I've tested negative because I tested before we got together." But I let her know and I kind of educated her a little bit, you know: that I could be asymptomatic but never had an outbreak, never had anything, I tested negative, so probably not. But that chance always exists. So, what I really appreciated about my current partner, honestly, was that she found the courage to tell me. Because most people won't say anything. That's been my understanding. Like, most people wouldn't say anything because it's "embarrassing". They have a very strong, visceral reaction to having to tell someone: it's "embarrassing", it's very emotionally--they feel "dirty"--all these types of things kind of come to mind: "Because I've got this virus, it's always been a negative thing." But I really--the fact that she told me probably made me admire her more than not saying anything to me at all. And then, let's say somewhere down the road she has an outbreak and she has to explain it. Then it's almost like: "Well, why didn't you tell me that in the beginning?" Right? So, I think that...first of all, it takes...a lot of courage to be able to share that fact. And certainly being prepared for the other person to either accept or reject. That possibility always exists. But I think if you're talking to someone who's at least emotionally intelligent enough to understand that--first, standing in front of you is a human being, and they deserve the consideration, and they certainly deserve the opportunity to be seen, loved, and give love just like anybody else. It should just be a common conversation and then a decision should be made, and that's it.
Courtney: Yeah! So, I'm hearing emotional maturity as well. That's something that came up with our last guest who was just like: "I recognize where we are." And I'm wondering if this is an age thing. So you said about 10, 12 years ago, you dated someone with herpes, and that would have put you at...39, late thirties. So, I'm curious to know your risk tolerance or awareness or comfort with dating someone who has herpes now versus what it might have been prior to that point in time.
Paul: Well let's see. That past relationship was--let's see, that started in 2007, to put a date on it. So, 2007 to 2009. That partner also disclosed to me in the beginning. [She] gave me some literature, gave me a couple of pamphlets. At that point, I didn't have a broad--or at least a knowledge--of the virus and how to live with it and manage it and navigate it. But she gave me information. I think she introduced me to her doctor, who ended up becoming my doctor at one point. And we just had a conversation about it. And so, once I understood how the virus is passed, once I understood how it worked, once I understood some of the background research about how many people actually have it, potentially could have it. The doctor said I could be asymptomatic today, I mean even before I tested, you know, because that doctor tested me. But my decision was made based on information at that time. And the fact that that partner also disclosed. So, I would say--and I would say that I'm more emotionally mature now than I was [laughs] back then [laughs]. But, I mean there was some there, like you said, I was certainly in my late thirties at that point, so I was 37. Yeah, 37. So, the emotional maturity with age...maybe, maybe not. I don't know, it's really interesting. I'm always fascinated by science, so...I can't give you a yes or no. Yet, I feel like I'm more emotionally mature now. I am, but I don't know if that was part of the decision-making process. I took a risk back then. I'm a risk-taker; I'm not crazy [laughs]. But I think when you have information, you make an informed choice. And I think that's the thing. If you have information, you can make an informed choice and at that point, you're choosing whether or not you want to engage in a relationship with this person or not. And I could have always said no. But then I could be missing out on the best person I've ever come across in my life. Right? And so, again, is that gonna be your barrier?
Courtney: Hmm...
Paul: Because most people can't help that they got it. It wasn't like they just decided to get it today [chuckles]. Many people don't know, and then they find out, and then they gotta navigate it. And that's part of the problem is that most people don't know that their partner has it, and they contact it and then...it's all these
questions and all this emotional connection and this connection because of that fact.
Courtney: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that in such detail. The vulnerability that comes with someone sharing their status is something that you admire. Like, it is a big deal for some people to be able to share that information, given--not just the stigma, but also any sort of negative projected emotions or feelings or thoughts from society and groups of people who either don't have herpes or have no idea what it's like to have herpes. Those are projected onto anyone who receives this diagnosis initially, and it kind of becomes the inner voice. If you have those projections just building up inside of you and you're listening to that and that becomes what you think are your beliefs and then it translates into your actions. If you aren't challenging that, then you're essentially being controlled and manipulated by those external voices of people who don't even know what it's like to have herpes. So, one of the things that I encourage people to do is to get involved with community. There are so many support groups that are out there that you can start with and begin to get the real story. Because a lot of times we are the resource, as people who are navigating this. And for many of us, we might be the first person who introduces someone to herpes in general, just from sharing our status with them. They may not have even heard from someone that they've had herpes before. So, I like to put that out there for people to understand because most of the listeners are people living with herpes. But I also want to say to the people who are listening who don't have herpes that it's OK for you to have whatever your visceral response is. We're all human. And when you hear that you may be a victim of the externally projected thoughts [of] what it means for a person to have herpes: what they look like or--like, your head might explode! Because you don't expect the person sitting across from you, that you're interested in and you're thinking about having sex with, to fix their lips to say, "I have herpes." And then take the discussion from there. So, it's also OK for you to have your emotions along with that. Now, there's three different responses that I'm finding people get from a potential partner. One of which is: "No thanks." The other is: "Tell me more." And then the other one is: "Me too." So, statistically speaking, there's only one in three odds of a rejection. And even then, that rejection is just oftentimes rooted in someone's lack of information. And I like what you said, because you were speaking to the information I love: that you and your previous partner went to their doctor together so that you could get the information from the source. So, there was this exchange and reciprocity in the dialogue. It wasn't just: "I have herpes, here's the information." And then you take whatever it is that they give you, or you go off and you google things on your own and you get inconsistent or inaccurate information. You both went to the doctor where you could both ask questions. I think that even that, like that's something that's vulnerable and intimate as well.
Paul: Absolutely. [chuckles] First of all, using the doctor as a source, but [inaudible] introducing me that person obviously has intimate knowledge of that partner, right? So we're having that discussion, we're discussing that health information that's supposed to be protected. And we're discussing it because it can have an impact on me. So, participating in that conversation certainly helped. So, my current partner, when she told me, I think I was more like: "Tell me a little bit more." I may have asked some questions, but the questions weren't to try to disqualify, if you will, it was more about just wanting to understand how it--what her experience was.
Courtney: Yeah. Perfect. I'm curious to know--and I'm curious to know a lot of things--but I'm prefacing things so that I can figure out which thought comes to mind before others [chuckles], and what surfaced now is about your dealbreakers. So, herpes obviously isn't a dealbreaker, but are you someone who knows what your hard dealbreakers are with a potential partner?
[extended pause]
Paul: [sighs] That's a great question.
[pause]
Courtney: That's all right, hey, you ain't gotta answer, you can tell me [laughs] to move on, cuz that's a big question.
Paul: I don't know, I don't know that if I'm one hundred percent clear about dealbreakers. I mean I think that's all contextually based. Right? I mean, because we all choose to get into relationships for different reasons. Or start down that relationship road or start down the intimacy road. So I think, probably...if I had to answer that question, it would be a complete mismatch of values.
Courtney: Hmm. Now, if you're sitting--if you're sitting across from someone--you've matched, you've texted for awhile, you've maybe gone on a couple of dates--and you kind of have an idea where things are with the person. So, when we talk about a mismatch of values, compatibilities, that can be also something that would contribute to one being like: "Ahh, you know, I don't want to move forward." And I want to bring this to light so that people can also take this into consideration because on one hand, disclosing your herpes status to someone who is negative for it or has shown no symptoms, you are anticipating either rejection or the approval to move forward. And often there is such a laser focus on this one thing of acceptance that all of these other potential mismatches of compatibility just go completely overlooked. And, coming from the other end of that, you know, going into a relationship or dating scenario where you're across from someone and you're like: "Yeah, this is going well. I like the conversation, I like that our values seem to align." And, they disclose their status to you, your decision making at that point--you know, you said [that] if there's a mismatch of values and it's like: "All right, we're not gonna move forward". But at this level, at this age, at this level of wisdom and maturity and emotional awareness you know pretty early: "All right, yeah, I wanna move forward with this person." And even something like herpes isn't going to be the thing that overshadows the values and alignments and compatibility with a potential partner.
Paul: Yeah, I think you just nailed it right on the head. If you're truly connecting with the person, I mean things beyond superficial. I mean yeah, people can be attractive and you can say this person is really sexy and so I'm turned on by this person. And you kind of get a sense of, you know...all of us, we'll assess someone and we'll get a sense of [whether] this is a one-time deal or is this something that's gonna be more sustainable. Maybe it is going to be a dating relationship, maybe it is going to be deeper than that. And I think with all of us, as humans, the more experience we have with that dating process, with just being in relationships...we kind of have, like you said, we have a sense of where we're gonna go, what the values are, are we mismatched or not, pretty early on. So, part of that is--yeah, I didn't just jump right into bed with my current partner [laughs]. It was obviously an exchange and communication and connection and just getting to know, right? And then because it was going in that direction, we both knew it was going in that direction, that's when we had the conversation. So, mismatching values, yeah, you should be able to tell pretty much early on, unless you're trying just to get into it just for the physical aspects of intimacy. And I look at connection much more deeply than that. It not just, I mean there's multiple areas, right? It's not just physical, I mean it's emotional, it's spiritual, it's intellectual. And certainly when those things start lining up, then you start realizing the entire value of the relationship in the first place. And where that could lead. Yeah, I knew right away that we were aligned. It's just how deep that was gonna go, which was more of a question. But that opened it up, saying yes. I'm having an understanding and...I'll say [that] saying yes, choosing to move forward, allowed the rest of that to open up.
Courtney: Mm-kay. If you were to present symptoms of herpes--as far as you know based on the experiences that you've had with your previous partner and now your current partner--I guess what would be your response to it? Like, how would you react to, you know, just having your first initial symptom?
Paul: Well I would imagine, just like with anybody else who's had that first outbreak, had that experience, it's going to be a little bit discombobulating in some respects, because like, "What's going on?" Right? And then, you're going to go to the doctor, I mean...if you're paying attention to your body, you're gonna know something's happening that's different and hopefully you're gonna go get it checked out, right? I'm that type of person. If something's going on with my body, I notice it and I'm going to get it checked out. If the doctor would come back to me and say, "Well, you tested positive for herpes", you know, I would be...I'd be surprised, but I wouldn't...it wouldn't be like I would blame anyone. Because I understand the science behind it. And I understand the research. And I certainly understand the things that trigger an outbreak. Particularly when, you know, management of stress or mismanagement of stress or lack of management of stress. There's a lot of things that can trigger it, but certainly, usually it relates to stress response. I do a lot of things to manage my emotional energy, which is where stress is rooted. And so that would surprise me. But I would talk about it. My partner is certainly someone I know I can talk to about it. I feel like we obviously have that trust. I wouldn't want her to feel like she "passed it on" to me, because there were so many opportunities before her. And honestly, it could have been any partner in the past. And it just so happens today that my levels of stress got to a point where I couldn't manage them and this is how my body reacted to it. It's an immune response. But I have some foundations in health and wellness. So for me it would just be a matter of: "OK, what did I not manage within myself that allowed it to happen?" versus "Oh god, now I got this and it's because of you", because that wouldn't--those are my choices, those were my partner's choices. And so, I need to manage that and certainly seek support and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I'm sure I would be surprised, but it wouldn't be like the end of the world, it wouldn't be a death sentence. It's just that: "OK. I'm positive, now we can navigate that." But that could also open up a whole other level of intimacy with the relationship, you know what I mean? [chuckles] Right? There's opportunity in everything that happens to us! Yeah, so I guess I would see the opportunity, ultimately.
Courtney: Yeah, I appreciate that because I'm thinking, from my perspective: "Well, all right, we don't need to use condoms anymore, babe! Yes! We got it over with!"
Paul: ...opens up the other side of the window, [laughs] that's out the door, right? Courtney: Yeah [laughs].
Paul: ...so yeah, "we don't have to be so careful", I mean, whatever, or you know. But I think as long as the communication is there, the communication is open and it's honest and it's direct, and it's truthful, and it's compassionate, and it's loving, right? All these different things, then...it's OK.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm. Ah--
Paul: I could get tested tomorrow and find out I'm positive tomorrow. Then what? Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Paul: Is that gonna change what my partner and I have been doing so far? It shouldn't! It shouldn't. It should have no impact.
Courtney: Yeah. You mentioned some emotional health management, emotional um...what did you say? I forget the exact wording, but like, you manage your emotions. I'm curious to know what some of those practices look like for you. I keep saying "I'm curious to know", I think that's like the new "um" for me...
Paul: [laughs]
Courtney: ...I gotta watch that.
Paul: That's the new "um", that's new "um". Yeah, so...how I manage my emotional state. So, obviously exercise. I'm a meditation practitioner. I've been meditating for the last...nine years. In the last three years, four years, I meditate twice a day every single day. There's no...breaks. That helps with the emotional management. I have a couple other practices. A coherence building practice. Again, these are things that help us manage our nervous system and help us manage the emotional states. Just meditation itself, I mean in mindfulness there's so much research out there today--I don't understand why it's not meditating, because if you want to manage your emotional states, if you meditated every single day, you would have a shift in your response to the things that happen to us or how you perceive how things happen to us. This is for everybody. So, just those two practices alone--meditation and coherence building...and exercise, those three practices--those are the things I use to manage my emotional states. And most people will tell you--if you were to talk to the people who know me--I'm probably the most laid-back person that you know. I don't get--I don't allow a lot of things to get underneath my skin.
Courtney: Mm-hmm.
Paul: That doesn't mean there aren't things that won't, but the things that do, there's very few things that will get underneath my skin. Most things I can manage. And so, it's--and if someone who is positive, if you don't have a practice, I would suggest having an emotional self management practice. Whether it's meditation, whether you want to go out there and do Yoga, whether you want to get acupuncture on a regular basis, whether you want to go and get massages. But self care is such an important piece being able to navigate how we respond to our environment and how we respond to the things that happen to us on a day to day basis.
Courtney: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think those are all useful tips, and I've been practicing Yoga. I'm in my ninth year. I started shortly after my diagnosis, because these were the things that I searched for: How do I reduce outbreaks? And it was: nutrition, movement, and stress management. And all of these things kind of revolved around Yoga. And so I got into it and I've been practicing...yeah, ever since not too long after my diagnosis. So that's been something that's helped me with sort of detaching from what's not mine and recognizing what is mine in my own centered emotional state. And being able to just, like, be in alignment, if you will...
Paul: Yes.
Courtney: ...and act from that place, rather than a place of stigma or a place of what the societal, external expectations of me are. Taking it back to the discordant dating piece. How did you and your partner meet? Did y'all meet online, did you meet in person?
Paul: We met in person.
Courtney: OK. Oh, all right! Like, at work or a social setting, or what? Paul: In a social setting.
Courtney: OK. That's cool. I was just curious if it was through a dating site, cuz it's tough meeting people in person now. And I can share this here. I've gotten off of dating apps. I just moved to Portland, Oregon from St. Louis, Missouri...three months ago? Yeah, I paid rent three times. That's how I keep track [laughs], how much money I spend here.
Paul: [laughs] Yeah.
Courtney: Since coming here, I got on the dating apps and...[sighs] not to like, brag or anything, but I kind of got overwhelmed [chuckles]. It's like, "Uhhhh, I need to figure this out." So, I got off of all of them, except one. Because that's my favorite one. But I've definitely capped out on my partnerships, but I'm also recognizing that I want to be able to meet new people, I wanna be social. Not just meet new partners, but also make new friends. So, I feel like the pandemic--or pre-pandemic--meeting people online and dating apps and everything was kind of like the "norm", and then you'd go out with them. Right? And now we've been masked up, not able to see the bottom half of people's faces for going on two years and it's like a "flip flop." There's more of a desire for human connection, even through the tension of navigating introducing yourself to someone who, you know, is like, "Give me six feet, I'm wearing my mask, don't talk to me." So there's a little bit of an uncertainty and discomfort there and a challenge, even, that I think presents an opportune time for creating intimacy. So, I'm curious to know, you know, for you, meeting in person during a pandemic--cuz y'all are fairly newer partners, like y'all met at least in 2020, right?
Paul: We met in...late 2020, and I would say we've been dating at least six months.
Courtney: OK. Yeah! Does dating--or how is dating in a pandemic, you know, period? Or is meeting people, for you, having met people out in the wild, like...how? [laughs] How do you talk to people, where do you talk to people...
Paul: [chuckles] Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I'm connected in the wellness community. And that's how we met.
Courtney: Hmm!
Paul: And so, at that time, because of the pandemic, we were all looking for connection. And all the social circles that we were used to...you know, being and navigating...all that stopped. You know, for...I mean, March...you know, the second week of March all that stopped. And so, there was an opportunity to start connecting in the wellness community and looking locally, I didn't know a lot of people locally. And so the opportunities present themselves, I participated in advance, maybe some Yoga sessions, things of that nature, and the community started coming together. Right? And so, our meeting was interesting...I mean obviously it was very innocent and it was kind of beautiful how it happened in the beginning, because, you know, it was all innocent. You meet people, you have a conversation, and then you go away. But then you come back together another time and then you have a conversation and you become interested. It was a small community of people that were getting together who wanted to do Yoga or who were interested in wellness. So, it kind of started that way. I think it is very interesting, because I tell people today that I think a lot of times [clears throat]...all these things we see happening in our society today, I think people have forgotten how to connect with individuals as human beings, you know? We spend a lot of time on the apps, we spend a lot of time with this virtual connection, but there's just something about virtual that's just not the same as being face-to-face in front of someone, meeting their energy, feeling their energy. I mean, you can do some of that stuff remotely, I'm not saying you can't, because there's energy in all of this. But there's something about the human connection that is just kind of missed in that process. And so, it got to build into: acquaintance, interest, more interest, attraction, let's have some conversations, let's go out, you know, so it was kind of like your traditional--it was almost kind of like your traditional way you [laughs]--the traditional way you would normally build a relationship with someone [laughs]. Right? Or become interested. It's actually kind of interesting now that I think about it as I just said it out loud. That's how it happened.
Courtney: Man! So, all I gotta do it start teaching Yoga classes in person? [laughs] Paul: [laughs] You never know!
Courtney: [laughs] Oh, I appreciate that. Because it's important. I think that we, we do get really caught up in the hype of online dating and--there's this paradox of choice. Because there has never been a time where your potential next partner, intimate partner, whatever it is that you're seeking, is a thumb swipe away. Like, you press a button! And you might be in the conversation with someone who thinks you're attractive, like...how many of those interactions would we have out in the wild? Like, how many social cues are we missing? Because I remember--even for me, I've been terrible at taking hints. And I know this about myself, like--you gotta hit me over the head and be like: "Hey idiot, I'm interested in you!" for me to get it. And even in college or high school, like, I've been fairly attractive at least, you know, the majority of my life, that I can remember, and in hindsight, I haven't been as emotionally aware of little social cues or indicators of interest as I am now. And I know that I missed out on a lot of opportunities. And I was talking to a friend recently, and he was speaking to me about this and when he said it I could unhear it. And that was part of what made me delete the dating apps. He was like: "Yeah, dude, most women on there are just on there for attention. Like, think about it, every other, every swipe that they get is gonna be a match if they're someone who's attractive and seeing attractive men on there." And I was like: "...shit." [laughs] And it was like, cuz I'm feeding into that. And I even brought it up to a couple of female friends and they were like: "Yeah, I mean, I get bored and I want some attention, and I go on a dating app." [laughs] and I was like: "Yo! I don't want to feed into this system anymore!" And so, disengaging from that for me--I'm talking like it's been awhile, it's been like two days. It'll be about two months...
Paul: [laughs]
Courtney: ...at the release of this podcast episode, though. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see what I report back in 60-ish days, cuz that's when this podcast [laughs] is gonna have gone live from the time of recording. But yeah, that human connection is something that also comes with community. And for people who do have H S V, I guess this is a good place to speak to that. I know that there are a lot of people who only date with, who only date other people who have herpes. Yes, it's "easier." You don't have to really engage in the conversation, there's not the risk of the guilt that comes with passing it on to a partner. But, I hope that in this series you can see how impactful it can be to not only branch out into other communities and branch into the potential of dating other partners, but to realize, like, what are you missing out on by only sticking to what's familiar and what it is that you know? Like, if you're comfortable where you are and you're happy, then by all means, continue to do that. But I want for people to feel like they're making a choice and not that the choice was made for them. Or that they don't have a choice at all. So, we spoke about you going and being in a common space, you connected with people through a mutual interest and you just so happened to have met your partner there. I think that for many of us it's difficult to do that. We can't connect or we may feel a little bit less worthy of doing the things that once brought us joy, that we felt connected through, that we had a sense of community for. Like, it's OK to step outside of that comfort bubble and bring yourself into a space where people are connecting through a mutual interest. Because I find that herpes is a mutual interest and I'm in a lot of different support groups and I see that that's often the only mutual interest and then when incompatibilities come up, like that's where a lot of problems arise. So, your experience that you've shared has broadened my perspective to now where I can speak to this newly tapped into range of perspective where I can be like: "Hey, well, what do you like doing? Why don't you just go do that, and maybe you'll meet people." But even if you don't meet people, you did something that you like, that you're interested in.
Paul: That's right. That's right. It's interesting, as you were kind of summarizing that I started thinking, it's like, you know I'm [chuckles] I've always, my entire life, have tried to be outside of the box. Particularly when we were talking about things, so in the dating perspective. I've dated the rainbow. And I've never had a problem with that. Right? And I know some people that only stick to dating the people that look like them. Right? There's a lot of stigma attached to that, when people go outside. But I think that we always talk about love being colorblind, people say those words: "Love is colorblind." But are you living that? Right? If you met someone from a different background that you just completely connected with and were completely enamored with and you wanted to spend the rest of your life with them, would you not make that decision because it looked different? Or would you go ahead and do it because you know that's the love of your life and that you're going to miss out on the love of a lifetime? And I guess when I look at it that way it's really about how open we are to being outside of the box of the "norm", if you will. We're "supposed to" do these things. But yet, you're looking at someone right in front of you and you know how you feel, you know how they feel, you know how strong that is, you probably know that you've never felt that before. And it's almost like: "Well, do I do what everyone tells me I should do? Or do I go ahead and take a chance on this one?" Right? And that's what we do, we take the opportunity, we see the opportunity: Wow, I can connect with someone that I never would have thought to connect with before. And I did this at a young age, so as I heard you say though, I was like well, yeah, what's your risk tolerance? Well, that's pretty risky, I can't take off what I look like. I can't take it off and put it on the--I can't hang it up on the hanger and then get a new skin and put it on and say, "I'll be this today."
Courtney: Yeah.
Paul: It's just every single day.
Courtney: Yeah!
Paul: Right? And you learn how to navigate that. We've navigated some tough things as human beings. So it's almost kind of like...can you navigate--you should be able to navigate this thing.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Paul: But we have to have the information, we gotta have the curiosity, we gotta have the emotional awareness, we gotta have the presence. And if we can do that then we can see people for who they really are.
Courtney: Yeah! I appreciate you just saying that and going there. Because I don't get a lot of Black men on this podcast to be able to speak to a lot of certain things, especially in regards to dating. So when we speak to colorblindness and like...I'm someone who's dated outside my race, there's no--I don't only date a person who looks like or does these things, but I recognize how dating people who don't look like me or participate in the same activities have expanded my tool kit of experiences. So, getting into Yoga or going rock climbing. Like, these are all things that--and to be completely direct, like I've said this on the podcast before--to my family and my social circle growing up--[it's called] "White People Shit". And being in--
Paul: We don't typically do that. We don't typically do that [laughs]. Right [laughs].
Courtney: Yeah! And I'm there and in these spaces, I'm doing these things and I'm with my person who you know is--they're "colorblind to love", and I want to--I guess maybe you would be, if you're comfortable we can go here, with like speaking to some of those compatibilities, incompatibilities. So we can talk about how...we look at herpes as such a big deal in some cases for some people, but race can be a big deal. Like, how we interact with each other in public. Like, do you know the proto--like, I hang out with someone a few times, I've hung out with people who--I guess this is a thing in Portland, they ride around and they flick off cop cars, and I'm like: "Yo! We got drugs in this car!" Like [laughs]: "Yeah, weed is legal, but you can't do that shit!"
Paul: [laughs] You can't do that! [laughs] Yeah.
Courtney: So I guess there's not really a question. I was just, like, the opportunity comes up for me to have a little bit of back and forth with someone who also dates outside of their race. And being able to speak to even that being a qualifier or a mismatch of compatibility if someone isn't attuned to the current political climate or what it would be like to date someone who is Black or a person of color or outside their race. Do you have any experiences perhaps that you could speak to in that regard as someone who dates outside their race and who is as emotionally intelligent as you are?
Paul: You know, it is interesting because I think that those are things that are important. Like, as you were talking about, those are things are important to me. [inaudible] to someone who has a more world or global view. Right? Even if it's just more of a societal community view, just...knowing that it's bigger than just us. Or just the individuals. I think that's certainly a very important thing for me. And it does allow us to share our experiences with someone who's genuinely interested in hearing about them. I think that's also important too. And you're right, it rivals our own perspective on other people's experiences. I always tell people: "You will never know what it's like to be me because you have not...you don't walk in my shoes, you don't wear the skin." But I have an opportunity and kind of almost obligation to share that story with someone as long as they're interested in hearing it. And are willing to listen to it. And not be triggered by it. Because my experiences are my experiences, I'm not alone. Yours are yours. Theirs are theirs. You know, even when you have twins...that grew up in the same family, grew up in the same house. They have different ways they saw the world through their eyes. Which makes them different when they grow up, even though they are identical physically. There's things about them that are different because of how they perceive the environment. So as long as we're open to sharing these experiences and not judging those experiences, we have the opportunity to really embody what people say they want--what people say or claim, you know: "Everybody's equal here and everybody's this" and you know, it's not gonna be that way until we can have that real conversation without being judged and having it acknowledged that we are different. That's OK. Right? We have different experiences. That's OK too. Don't imprint your experiences on me and I won't put my experiences on you. Because, you know, those were ours and ours alone. So, the more open minded we get, the easier it is for us to be acceptable of things that aren't "normal", if you will.
Courtney: Yup. That perfectly sums it up. Thank you, I appreciate you being willing to go there with me and share that.
Paul: Awesome, yeah.
Courtney: Last question I got for ya, is I often speak to sexual health and its interconnectedness to mental health. Given that this podcast started with people who were contemplating suicide upon their receipt of their positive herpes diagnosis, and it's evolved over time to see how that influences behavior. So, I say "sexual health is mental health." And I'm curious to know what your visceral response is to that statement.
Paul: Yeah, I would say certainly it's definitely connected, right? I think that [clears throat] sexual health, so...we receive a diagnosis, that's an experience. Right? Every experience that we have, there's an emotion attached to that. What drives that is what your past experiences are, what your perceptions are, and what your values are. So if you have past experiences where these things had negative connotations and that becomes your belief system, and that becomes how you perceive it, it's going to drive all of your emotional responses that you have around this particular situation. And whatever that emotional response is, you have a way that you behave after you experience that emotion. And for some people it can be so overwhelming, you know, that they get depressed and so it starts going down that track. So, one's a trigger, one's a response, but they're interconnected. Right? So I would say yeah, on the surface, that is right and this is why it's right. Because we have an experience. And so those trigger emotions. So if we are taking care of ourselves and just being present with it, you know, these things happen and you know what, we can certainly blame other people for where we are and what we're experiencing. But I don't think that's doing us a service. That's doing us a disservice when we do that because we spend a lot of time blaming and not taking responsibility for how we respond to it. So--not responsibility for what happened--responsibility for how you're responding to it, right? And knowing that we have choices and we have the ability to control that response. Is it hard? Absolutely. [scoffs] If you are at a place where it is completely--where you can't function--yeah, it's going to take a lot of work and lot of support to shift that. But, we have the ability to do so. Everyone has the ability to do so. So with the right information, the right support, and just with some compassion for ourselves, as well as other people, we can navigate it one day, one minute, on hour at a time. Because that's what it takes for anything. So whether it's--if you want to call it a mental health diagnosis or sexual health diagnosis, it's really interconnected because they are driving one another.
Courtney: Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Thank you for sharing your story. Is there anything else that you want to leave us with before I close this out?
Paul: No, I think that we talked about a lot. And I certainly appreciated the conversation and I'm glad I was able to participate and hopefully there's something that I said that will help one of your listeners or people in the community. It's not a death sentence, it's certainly isn't as bad as society would like to make us think it is. I think that society needs to get educated because [scoffs] quite frankly [laughs] if everybody knew that they probably had this thing, we probably wouldn't be talking about it right now. [laughs] Right? But because the way society is, and everybody "ohhh, you're so different" and this thing happened, you know, whatever it is, and I got a judgement about you, if you could just drop the judgements and just see the people, right? And have compassion for people, we could all get along better. We would all function better. And we would treat each other differently. And so, much love and much respect for you for doing what you do, for your community. And that's all I have, thank you. Thank you so much for allowing me to share this time with you.
Courtney: I appreciate it. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review, share, subscribe to, and if you have the means to do so and feel like you've gotten something out of this podcast, donate to the non-profit. I can be found on Venmo and Cashapp at CourtneyBrame, all one word. We also have a Patreon page if you want to donate in an ongoing way, on a monthly basis. It's just Patreon dot com slash S P F P P. And then it's the same thing on PayPal if you're out of the country: PayPal dot com slash S P F P P. Yeah, so this really speaks to that statement that's out there: "ignorance is bliss". I feel like we're at a point now where we can say "knowledge is bliss", or "emotional intelligence and awareness are bliss". I think that we need to reframe that narrative so that we don't just excuse ignorance anymore. So that's one of the major takeaways from this podcast episode. And I invite you to check out the show notes, the website, actually, because I'm writing out greater, lengthier descriptions of the podcast episodes for those who may not be able to listen to the podcast. So if you're someone who prefers the writing, then I go into a lot more detail on the website of where you'd find the podcast episode. Til next time, stay sex positive.