SPFPP 228: Favorable Odds
(Transcription available below) Let me apologize in advance for the audio quality ya’ll. Liam is a firefighter and was chatting with me via FaceTime and this was the best quality we could’ve gotten for his story as someone who hasn’t tested positive for herpes who dates someone positive. We have more clear audio after a few minutes and if you make it through you won’t regret it.
Liam speaks to valuing the integrity of his partner. He talks about how she disclosed to him and he found her character attractive. He didn’t feel as if he needed to have a particular reaction to her disclosure, and I thought it was interesting that he used the phrase “having an out”.
I think this speaks to the importance of how we can put in so much effort presenting perfect in hopes of acceptance, but becoming exhausted over time because that isn’t a sustainable way of being with anyone, nor is it sustainable FOR anyone.
Speaking from a firefighter experience, he talks about the odds of trusting a person, then taking the risk mitigations into consideration, but still acting knowing there’s always a risk, which was damn good insight. I spoke in the discordant dating series about how attraction plays such a huge role in choosing to move forward after a disclosure and he speaks to that too.
Something else that stands out is that he’s never felt unsafe with his partner sexually. Any weirdness that was lingering was mitigated BEFORE sex was had. Stigma says don’t trust us folks with herpes because we’re unsafe, but reality says we ARE in fact trustworthy humans in relationship.
And also, shoutout to his sister who’s a health care provider for telling him about SPFPP! Talk about allyship!
Transcription:
Something Positive for Positive People Episode 228: Favorable Odds April 29, 2022
Courtney: Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non-profit organization that connects people navigating herpes stigma to support resources. This includes community resources that talk about different ways of sharing your S T I status with someone as well as mental health services. If you want to support our cause you can go to Venmo or Cash App and donate to Courtney Brame. And just put "donation" in the title because I also use Venmo and Cash App for other work-related stuff. Just non-non-profit stuff. I'll always separate the two. And then PayPal dot com slash S P F P P [paypal.com/SPFPP] or if you want to commit to a more long term donation plan then you can visit our Patreon page which is just Patreon dot com slash S P F P P [patreon.com/SPFPP]. Also please like, rate, and review the podcast in whatever format you're listening on. I normally say that at the end of the podcast but I want to get that in early in the event that you just so happen to be on that page, and you can just hit the leave a review button in order to help us with being discovered by other people who can benefit from what it is that we have going on. Today's guest is Liam, and as you may have already heard throughout listening to more recent podcast episodes, there was a series on discordant dating, where one partner didn't have herpes or hadn't shown any symptoms or tested positive for it, whereas the other partner was aware of their positive status. The overall intention of this series was to not only offer people living with herpes an opportunity to get an inside look at the perspective of the person who is dating the person who's positive for herpes, but also for this to be a really useful tool for sharing with a partner who you might be disclosing your status to who hadn't had any experience like this. And so I recently--recently at the time of this recording because this will be up in April, May--I made a post just inviting people who are dating or in relationships with a partner who is positive for herpes to come onto the podcast and just share their experience. I received a decent amount of interest from people. I was very shocked at how many people wanted to take part in this, just talking about different things, from what made them decide to move forward, how did they feel about the way that their partners share their status with them, deciding to use or not use condoms or their comfort with their partner taking antivirals. These are all just general curiosities that come from people who do have herpes who are curious about the perspective of a person who is dating someone who has herpes while they have yet to express any symptoms or test positive. So our guest today is Liam and Liam is dating someone who has disclosed their positive herpes status to him. And we're just going to go into it there. How did your partner tell you that they had herpes?
Liam: We had been hanging out for a while, but just pretty slow going. We met and then I had to go back for work and whatnot. I'd come out for a little bit, come hang out. That was for a few months, and then we were getting a whole lot closer to getting intimate. Then basically it just kind of came up. We were talking and everything's kind of getting towards, you know, hopefully hooking up pretty soon [within] the next day or two. And they said, "Hey, you know, there's some shit we need to talk about first." And it was like, "This is what I got, this is what's going on, it's not flared up, but just so you know I didn't really have a chance to make an informed decision when I got it, and I'm just trying to make sure you got a chance to wrap your head around this before we're all in the middle of things and you're trying to be like, 'Oh yeah, totally.'" And yeah, that was pretty much it. It was super cool, super straightforward. I thought it was hella cool that there was a whole lot of vulnerability on their part, but also really making it easy to be like, "Here's an out if you feel uncomfortable, you don't have to feel pinned into a corner [or that] you have to say this or do this." They were just like, "This is what's up and like if that's not cool, you'll have that. And if it is, fuckin a!"
Courtney: Thank you for sharing that. I like what you said about not feeling like you were backed into a corner. You had an out, basically. Because I know that as I speak on this podcast, I try and communicate with people to be as objective as you can, just share the facts, the information, and anything else is just icing on the cake. If you want to add more to it, then you are more than welcome to but I like how you said that they gave you sort of an out. You didn't feel pressured to have any sort of particular response. You were free to choose your response. I'd like to know what did that do for you being given that sort of out? You know, "If you're not interested because of this, here's your chance. I'm not going to feel any way about it. Here you go."
Liam: I mean, I think in general I've been hella fucking impressed with how they carry themselves and conducted themselves in general as it is. This person has hella fucking integrity. Like, in general! I've just been super fucking impressed and I really double down on that. Just the way that it was, [how they] shared the vulnerable shit that definitely can give some negative reactions or ignorant reactions. And also still having that space to be hella considerate to me. I just double down on that. Like, "I got a huge fucking crush on you," on this gal, and [their disclosure] did nothing to it [chuckles]. It was crazy, that's for sure, I was like, that's hella fucking cool, I really, really fucking appreciate that. And it's like, "I didn't know I could trust you more but that's fucking for real and honestly, I'm a little ignorant on the particulars of safe sex with herpes. If you could kind of help give me a rundown of what's what, what's stupid, what's whatever so I don't have to go Web M D this for the next hour and be like, "I don't know. That's probably good." I'm fucking down. That's all I'm really concerned about, what does it look like to be responsible right now? Let's go!
Courtney: Yeah, so that vulnerability, that moment helped you establish a greater sense of trust with this partner.
Liam: Yeah! That vulnerability, and then paired within that vulnerability still holding that fucking consideration to be like, "I'm going to be hella vulnerable and also make damn sure that if you're uncomfortable...you're not just, 'Oh, I feel some kind of way because you're being vulnerable, so this is how I must respond or how I should respond.'"
Courtney: Yeah, that's cool. You were given the freedom to have your reaction and your reaction was just warmth and receptiveness to this doubling down on this person being exactly who you thought of them to be. I think that oftentimes, I see people try and overcompensate for any sort of shortcoming--and we'll use herpes here, but this can be anything: insecurity in finances--that's me--insecurity in perhaps the way they look, their body, maybe having changed throughout the course of the pandemic, the way that they present themselves is very on ten and being on ten all the time is not a sustainable place to be. So when we are able to maintain a level of consistency of integrity, integrity is something that is an intangible aspect of a person's identity. You saw integrity in this person, and it was just validated by their willingness, their vulnerability to share their status with you and go into the additional details that they shared with you about it. Is that accurate?
Liam: Yeah. Naw, for real.
Courtney: Cool. Now, as far as navigating it, I know that you said that they double down or that your trust essentially became greater in them. So as you navigated an intimate relationship with them, what was your comfort level at the beginning around having sex with this person who has herpes? And what is it now that time has passed? Has it changed at all? Has it been the same? What are your thoughts about having sex with someone who has herpes as someone who hasn't at least tested positive at this point?
Liam: I mean, I think the very first time there was a little trepidation just because of like, being a hitch, horrible fucking sex ed. Horrible. I mean like, I read this, I read that, so I know stuff [chuckles]. I'm like, "Yeah, okay, this is all you got to do: you got to wear a condom, you've got to wherever." I'm like, "Okay, well fuck." And it's like, I don't know, I'm an old firefighter. I'm pretty used to, like numbers games, and it's like, you kind of think through thoughts and then you think through your comfort level. You do what you do, you know, and so, to me, I think that really kind of came through here. It's like, I trust this person, here are some basic mitigations, and nothing's 100. That's for real, but...meh, I like the odds!
Courtney: Yeah! "I like the odds." I think that's what we'll call this podcast episode. When you look at the odds, it's a matter of just weighing what those odds are, what the risk is up against, and how you view the person. There's something that's really deep in what I'm trying to come across here, based on our dialogue and what you just shared. And I think that it speaks volumes to how much it is that you like somebody. If you just like someone, there's nothing that can make you not like that person, unless there's an inconsistency with the reasons that you like that person. So if this person, you were really drawn to their integrity, if there was something that they did, like let's say, you caught them in a lie, a horrible lie with someone. That may shake up your perception of them in being a person of integrity, but for them to maintain the consistency of that integrity and you being attracted to that, the attraction growing along with the integrity that's being demonstrated. Someone having herpes that doesn't directly conflict with their integrity. And this is the example that I'm pulling from, because if you measure up your identity, why a person may like you, what makes you like a person, and you ask yourself, does a herpes diagnosis directly conflict with that consistency of being? Then you see just how insignificant it is to place the value of a person on their health status, their S T I status. I think that makes sense, what did you think?
Liam: Yeah, I mean, I think it kind of speaks to what we were just saying with like this poor sex ed and just general ignorance and stigma that it's even something that we're spending as much
time thinking over, really. Because it's like, "Do I want this? No. Is it the end of the world? No. Okay, so, what are the mitigations, and like what you say, what do you think about this person? How do you feel about this person?
Courtney: You said that you had piss poor sex ed up until this point. Do you feel like your sexual education or communication skills got better or worse, or what did they stay the same since having met this person and started dating someone who's living with herpes?
Liam: I think they've been on a trajectory. I think the last few years they've been improving. I think more than anything since I met this person, back to being hella impressed with their integrity and whatnot, there was a real comfort level and trust. Not just like, "I love you" or whatever, but like observing how they conduct themselves and it's solid in a lot of different ways. So it took a lot of things that I think that...lacking sex ed and just general ignorance [where] a bunch of common tropes and misrepresentations fill in the blanks on a lot of times. It took stuff like that, maybe I'd be more inclined to be a little uncomfortable asking because all that I know is a stupid [preconceived idea] about [herpes]. And that's it: "But I feel embarrassed to ask it" or "I'm ignorant about this and I think I--" you know, whatever. That kind of stuff that I think comes hand in hand with that. You know, decent intent but overall, pretty damn ignorant in a lot of ways. [That] was hella negated on the front end by just having such a deep comfort level with this person and being like, they're actually hella cool when you can just be very upfront. If you have a question about this or anything, you should just ask the question and then you go from there. That makes a lot of sense to me. So I think that really set things up to just have way more frank and inquisitive [conversations] as opposed to charged kind of conversations.
Courtney: So you were already on the path of becoming more informed, more educated, and then you came into contact with this person.
Liam: Yup.
Courtney: Perfect. So that's very consistent with other interviews that I've done here, is that there's a level of education and certainty in what's important to you in a partner that tends to factor in when someone is making a decision to move forward with someone despite their herpes diagnosis. This is something that directly challenges the stigma of people who have herpes being unsafe or...[that] they're promiscuous, unsafe, indecisive about partnership, just not trustworthy essentially, is what stigma says. But here you are saying that this person that you trusted and you had a crush on them and you admire their integrity. This person just happens to have herpes which directly defies what the stigma has to say about people who are living with herpes. So the consistency of being able to filter educated partners or being a partner who is a little bit more informed about how sex education has let us down to this point and how we can do better on our own, utilizing the resources that are available to us and having dialogue with sexual partners around S T Is, around all of the other aspects of experiencing pleasure in a safe way with one another. These are the things to also take into consideration when considering dating someone with herpes if you don't have it, or if you're someone who does have herpes filtering in partners who have this level of communication. Has there been a time at all where you may have felt like you had herpes after having had sex with your partner?
Liam: No. It's been like--since we started having sex in that relationship, it's been a month, a month and a half.
Courtney: Okay.
Liam: So it hasn't been hella long. But yeah, no.
Courtney: All right. And is the comfort building over time as you continue to have sex with them? Or is it just kind of layered out? Is it just consistently [that] you notice it isn't really any different than having sex, period? To phrase the question in a better way, is having sex with someone who has herpes different than having sex with someone who doesn't have herpes in your experience?
Liam: Not...really, it was...an hour or two before we got together it was like, "Okay, well, you have herpes, let me run through what's safe, not safe, whatever." So like a little trepidation. I wouldn't even say a lot, but a little. But since then, it is what it is. They have integrity. They pay attention to their body. I have no doubt that I'm going to know if they're having an outbreak or anything like that. I mean, I spent years around the odds of someone killing me and what I was going to do and then making an opinion about how I felt about those odds of that mitigation [chuckles]. It just falls right in for this. It's like okay, cool. That's not nearly as scary as someone killing you. Here's the mitigation and all right...[chuckles] you know, it's like, "Meh. I'm good!" And...it's like somebody I really give a fuck [about], that's hella cool.
Courtney: Yeah. Way to drive that point home! I mean, it's really about--there's not really much more to cover here. It's: Do you like the person? Are you informed about what the possible risks are? And are you aware of how to mitigate those risks? And yeah, I don't know, man, is there anything else that you want to add to this? Because again, this is a conversation that I'm finding...the patterns are: Liking the person and education. That's it. It's not even about herpes necessarily. It's about the compatibility and understanding of how to navigate the discussions around it. Anything that you want to add about your experience at all?
Liam: I mean I think that really kind of nails it. It turned out to be a whole lot simpler than I thought it would be. This is just basic stuff, man. But one thing for me, we're talking about that trajectory of awareness or whatnot, years ago, probably at least five or six at this point, I had a partner that had H P V and had complications and whatnot from that. I think that was a real "Oh, wow!" kind of moment because then it's like, "Well, we've been having sex. To the best of my knowledge, there's not really a test for [for H P V] other than visual." So I think I got it, I probably got it, but I don't really know. I think having to go through that and trying to think through that...I think really helped lay the groundwork for the ease of this conversation along with just having such an easy comfort and trust with the person I'm dating.
Courtney: Do you have any advice or guidance for someone who may be listening to this podcast episode, and they are considering dating someone who has herpes?
Liam: I think really what we just said because it really comes down...so, just what we said right now, weighing how you feel about somebody, weighing how you perceive the risks. And how you perceive them is going to be different. So for me, it wasn't really a thing. If you're terrified about it, then you should think about it more; like, one, you just should. And two, to make hella sure that you're not taking out your ignorance or your discomfort on this person that's being hella for real with you. I think that's really it, it's just separate. To me, it's like separating those out into, "This is how I feel about this person, this is what I feel I know about herpes, in general, and this is what I feel about risks or not." Or whatever will give me trepidation. To me I think you just kind of dig into the [indiscernible]. How you feel about all that is going to be different, you know. And you go from there.
Courtney: Thank you, Liam, my man, I appreciate you taking the time to hop on here and give me your insight. Thank you, thank your partner. I appreciate her connecting us together as well, in order to just really drive this point home, so I'm going to stay on here. I'm going to talk a lot more and then yeah, I'll let you go and get ready for work. But like I said, thank you.
Liam: Can I say one last thing?
Courtney: Yeah, you sure can!
Liam: My little sister actually turned me on to your account. She's a nurse practitioner and the training they get in school is pretty bad as far as S T Is. And so [your account is] part of her trying to be a more well-rounded professional and a better resource to her patients who have S T Is. She said, "This is definitely an account that I follow. That helps...the perspective a lot."
Courtney: Man, thank you! I appreciate that! I need to make sure I'm more mindful in the stuff I post because it's not always very professional [laughs]. I'm going to take that into consideration moving forward for sure. Because I guess now, that's just the point we're at. I want to continue to create allyship, you know, extending beyond just people who are living with S T Is but also being able to make some sort of mobilization occur within the health space. Being able to connect with nurse practitioners, medical organizations and health experts in general in order to make this thing more of what it already is and just more impactful and efficient. So thank you, I appreciate that.
Liam: Yeah, for real!
Courtney: All right Liam, my man. Take care!
Liam: All right! Thanks!
Courtney: Thank you! All right, so that was a pretty short interview because the answers that Liam gave are congruent with what's been coming up in the Discordant Dating Series. If you're someone who is listening to this, and you have not tested positive or shown symptoms for H S V, thank you for being here. Thank you for being willing to become an ally. Your presence here demonstrates allyship. You could have very easily after having been disclosed to just been like, "Naw, I ain't dealing with that," and just avoided any additional understanding or education of what it would be like or could be like to date someone who is living with herpes. If you are someone who is living with herpes, hopefully, this opens up your perspective to where you don't feel like you can only date someone with herpes. I want you to know that you have options. You can make a choice in how you choose to navigate the realm of dating, having a positive herpes diagnosis. You're not the only one. While we may not know many people in our day-to-day personal lives who are living with herpes, we all know someone who is living with herpes, and it's just a matter of education, and the way that we speak to education now really revolves around unlearning. It's unlearning that S T Is all show symptoms. It's unlearning language that is non-inclusive to the people who have lived experiences with sexually transmitted infections. It's unlearning this belief that condoms protect you from everything. It's unlearning that when you ask for an S T D test, that you're being tested for everything, there is far more to take into consideration when we are having any sort of an interaction with someone who has herpes or if there's going to be a set--and when I say any sort of interaction, I mean sexual interaction, I don't know why I said [chuckles] any interaction, as if us passing by each other on the street has any value or relevance [chuckles] compared to having sex, right? This is really about how we view sex. It's about how we view relationships. Is this someone I want to be with? And do I have as much information as I can have about allowing myself to move forward in whichever direction I go? I think one thing that Liam said, and I've mentioned this in the podcast episode about having an out. There's better language for it, but that really is about being given a choice and how to navigate this moving forward. Not to feel stuck with, "Oh, I'm going to feel like a bad person if I say no, I don't want to move forward." That's not the case. We're human beings. We all have our feelings and we all have a right to our feelings. So don't feel like you have to give an answer right then and there on whether or not to move forward. But please just give an answer whether that'd be, "Hey you know, I'd rather not " so that people aren't stuck on, "Oh my god, this person doesn't like me because of my herpes status." If you're just not compatible, then share that. If that seems like an easy out to just blame the herpes, please don't do that to people. Let them know, "Hey, I don't think that you have integrity," or, "Hey, I don't think that we're in line long term with what it is that we want from each other." You can be real about that. And that's one thing that I'm finding that people really struggle with is just being real. If you don't know what you want, you can say you don't know what you want. If you want something that the other person in front of you or that you're dating is unable to provide you with then you can express that. If that feels like a vulnerable thing and saying no because you have herpes is a cop-out, or just not communicating at all after a person discloses, then there's some work for you to do within yourself. So please, please just be real. Be honest. Be honest with yourself so that you can be honest with the other person and regardless of how someone's feelings are going to be. Yeah, nobody likes rejection. Rejection sucks, but if the rejection is going to occur, let it be real. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review subscribe to share this podcast, however you're listening to it. If you have found value in any of the podcast episodes or resources that we provide, I ask that you consider making a donation at Venmo and Cash App at Courtney Brame[@CourtneyBrame], just C O U R T N E Y B R A M E. All one word, no special characters, and just put "donation" in the comments and I'll know where to direct it. If you want to become a more long-term subscriber in the donation round, there's a Patreon page: Patreon dot com slash S P F P P [patreon.com/SPFPP] and then the PayPal is just Paypal dot com slash S P F P P [paypal.com/SPFPP] if you are not in the United States. Till next time, stay sex-positive.