SPFPP 224: Discordant Dating Series - But Aren't Cold Sores Still Herpes?
We close out the Discordant Dating series of Something Positive for Positive People with Jesse. Jesse is someone who experienced an oral herpes outbreak and speaks to having learned from an extensive dialogue between him and his doctor. We talk about disclosing or not disclosing oral herpes vs genital herpes. It’s not that there’s a misconception that there’s something different. I am learning that there’s a consistency in that people generally have a discomfort speaking about sex in general. Taking it a little deeper, it’s likely about just not knowing what it’s like to have/live with or have had people share their herpes status with them in the past, you know?
This episode highlights just how important education is when it comes to oral herpes (and obviously sex education in general). But how our guest speaks to his experience with his friends during his oral herpes outbreaks speaks to how stigma remains prevalent. We all know someone who has herpes, and THAT needs to be an ongoing narrative as it is more reflective of society than “Everybody has herpes”. It also invalidates the lived experiences of people who have herpes, disclose and are judged by people unaware of their status or who don’t have herpes. Adding to that, the people who have or get cold sores but don’t know they’re herpes contribute to this too. Cold sores are herpes. You hear it straight from our guest here.
Our allies are hiding behind this cold sores aren’t herpes messaging because they simply aren’t receiving the education necessary to accept this until it crosses their range of perspective. These stories, OUR stories are supporting the creation of allyship outside this little community of ours. People are learning about our experiences and this discordant dating series serves as proof of that. I hope this opens the door for more useful experiences outside just our lived experiences with herpes and invites more participation into what having herpes means for some of us. We’ll get there.
Transcription:
Something Positive for Positive People Epiosde 224: Discordant Dating Series- But Aren’t Cold Sores Still Herpes?
April 1, 2022
Courtney: Wrapping up the Discordant Dating Series: There is a lot to take away from the episodes that we've done. Interviewing people who have not shown symptoms of H S V or tested posted or who are unaware of their status, who've dated people who were positive for herpes and disclosed their status to them. You get to see the insights of the people who were disclosed to and then had to make a decision. You kinda hear what influenced their decisions, and it generally revolves around how attracted someone is to the person who's disclosing. And that attraction goes beyond physical and beyond: "OK, well, if we have sex and it's possible that I'm going to also have the condition that you have." Noo. It's about the emotional connection, and sometimes how we disclose to a partner influences how a person receives that. And it can influence their level of attraction to us and how emotionally connected we're able to be. So, these are some things that really influence that, and I'm thankful to the podcast listeners who've reached out to past partners and current partners and invited them into this space to share their experiences, because I think that this will be useful to anyone who's getting ready to share their status with someone or anyone who has been disclosed to and just wants to know how people who don't have herpes navigate dating someone who does. So I am really hopeful that this is something that can be impactful to people who stumble across it.
And while we're talking about impact and stumbling--y'all know I've been on my kinky stuff lately, ha ha!--because I have been on [the] Beducated video library for sex education resources. If you go to Beducate dot me slash S P F P P and then enter that promo code S P F P P at checkout, you will be able to get, not only a free trial for all Beducated courses, but you will also be able to join from just nine ninety-nine per month. The library of resources and courses are insane. I mentioned that I watched the Lola Jean pegging videos [and] the Dirty Talk with Marla Renee Stewart. I also got to finish up the Dominance and Submission for Playing with Power Dynamics. And I got to learn some stuff. I got to implement some things, if you will, as well and put them into practical use. I'm trying to be professional in saying that yes, I used some of the stuff that I learned and I think that myself and my partners have been really enthusiastic about those things as well. And I also watched the Threesomes course. This was the most recent one. I know that I said I was gonna check that out, so. It was really cool to just--again, I mentioned this in the previous ads--that consent, communication, these are all very important parts. And more than anything, being on the same level of communication so that everyone is able to go into it knowing what their expectations are and then be able to understand that there is space for communication to occur throughout the threesome. Also taking breaks if needed, being able to say that, if you are sensing that someone's feeling left out, being able to bring that up. And what's cool is that I got to watch a threesome happen. It was an M F M--M F M?--no, I'm sorry, F M F. M F F? It was a threesome [chuckles] where there was a guy and two women. There was one penis, two vulvas. And it was cool! It was an educational [chuckles], ethical porn that I watched while getting some education. There were a couple of videos just introducing the concept and different ways to go about it and setting expectations. And then I got to watch some porn! And in conclusion, I got to also...they had a pillow talk session afterward where they just talked about what they liked and how they felt throughout certain parts of it. Cuz you can watch and you can kind of see where somebody may have felt left out and how that was handled. So to be able to watch it with the intention of learning and being educated, I think it was about 24 minutes. I mean, if y'all watching stuff on Netflix, you can watch a 24-minute threesome for the sake of education purposes, if that's something that you're into. I can't wait to put more of what I'm learning through Beducated to use. And again, that's Beducate dot me slash S P F P P. You can go straight to the link in the episode show notes. And just be sure to use that code S P F P P at checkout so that you can join Beducated and pay what starts at nine dollars and ninety-nine cents a month. And that's sixty five percent off of the yearly pass when you use my promo code S P F P P. I hope that you enjoy Beducated. I hope that you enjoy this podcast episode and continue to please like, rate, review, subscribe to, and share this podcast. Doing that is what keeps us being able to be found by the people and create that sense of allyship, not just from within ourselves but also extending outside of the communities of people who are living with herpes. And again, support our sponsors if you can and if you find any of their products and services useful. Because that is how you can also support Something Positive for Positive People and support me. I hope you enjoy the conclusion of The Discordant Dating Series and let me know what you think! Thank you.
Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non-profit organization that connects people navigating herpes stigma to resources. These resources include community, support, as well as mental health services if anyone is, in fact, struggling with this stigma of a herpes diagnosis. If you go through and listen to the podcast episodes, you'll find different tools for navigating a diagnosis, dating, disclosure, navigating relationships, and most recently at this point, our toolkit, if you will, on Discordant Dating. That whole series is just a few podcast episodes where I've interviewed people who've just dated people who have herpes and haven't shown symptoms or tested positive themselves. So this episode is going to be the conclusion of that series, as this will be the last of people who've reached out in response to my ad. And this was gr--my ad, it wasn't an ad, it was just a post [laughs]. So, I'm grateful to everyone who's reached out so far. I hope that this has been a useful series for everyone, if you've gone through and listened to all of them. And my intention overall is for--even someone who doesn't have herpes, if you're interested in dating someone and you're not really aware of what the risks are, you don't know what questions to ask yourself or what to think about, then I hope that you were able to find your way here and that these conversations are able to help you make as informed of a decision as you can, considering being in a space that you may be unfamiliar with because you might not have been disclosed to before. So, thank you for wanting to do the work and take the time to invest in listening to this. All right, Jesse. What are your pronouns?
Jesse: I identify as he/him.
Courtney: All right. Now, you are someone who responded to the social media post. And I am so grateful. Thank you for doing that. Let me start with: How did you find out about this? Cuz typically people don't follow me if they don't have herpes. So, how'd you get in contact with me?
Jesse: So, I actually saw your post on a friend's story. And she had posted--obviously, you have great resources--"Give this a look." And I read through your posts and I was like: "Wow! OK. Here's somebody talking about something really positive, something that I have on my mind constantly as something that I try to address with people whenever it feels appropriate." So, yeah, I shot you a message and was like: "Yeah, let me speak a little bit about my experiences, and maybe what I have encountered, maybe the culture I've grown up in." That kind of thing. If I can help add to this then I would love to.
Courtney: Thank you, I appreciate that. What's interesting is the previous interviewees, their significant other who has herpes sort of like nudged them, if you will, one [chuckles] one guy said, "My girl came in here and she was like, 'You gonna do this!'" [laughs]
Jesse: [laughs]
Courtney: So I'm glad to hear that this was just something that you wanted to be a part of. You caught it in passing on someone's Instagram story and you wanted to step up and--I use the phrase "show allyship" because that appears to make the most sense for a lack of better terminology. But yeah, just showing allyship to combat stigma. So, this friend, like are y'all friends or do you just follow this person on social media? Is this something that you--
Jesse: Yeah--
Courtney: --were--
Jesse: We've been friends for a hot minute but we haven't been super close or anything. But I just found that post in and of itself to be...I don't know, like...it takes a lot of courage to post something like that to all of your followers. It wasn't just on a Close Friends list, it was just to everyone and so, that I instantly was like: "Oh! Either this person is very connected to this topic or they're someone who's living with herpes." And it just felt right to be able to take that initiative.
Courtney: Yeah, I appreciate that! Thank you. Whenever people share things, I'm always like: "Yes! Hell yeah!" That is so exciting. People often commend me for my bravery or my courage but I let everybody know it's not bravery, it's not courage. It's privilege. I have the privilege of being open about--of being able to be open about my herpes status and connect with people in this way. Whereas other people may experience stigma in a way that...may jeopardize their livelihood. There are people who work in education, and there's people who work in office settings where being stigmatized is essentially--it's potentially something that can negatively impact their income, their way of living. So, I'm fortunate enough to have nestled my way into this sexual health education field, if you will. So whenever people share things, I'm always super, super grateful because they spark things like this. And where we're going to go with this conversation, I don't know, but I know that it's gonna be something that is useful to the people who come across it. So, thank you again for being here. I want to start with just asking you...you've dated people who have herpes. What was the first time that someone shared their positive H S V status with you? And how'd that go?
Jesse: So the first time I was a bit younger. And it was something people can probably relate to as one of those heat of the moment conversations. And it was a little jarring for me at first because I hadn't encountered it before. And I hadn't really had some serious conversations about it. And I ended up having that conversation, consenting and just figuring out what...how to be safe in the situation. But it wasn't a committed partner, so we didn't continue that conversation more. It was just like: "We can safely hook up, this isn't gonna be...the chances of transmission is very slim at this point. There's medication involved, there's protection involved." And then it was just a fun time! And that kind of like was the first experience that just made me realize: "Oh. OK. You know, I go get tested regularly anyway and so adding that to the list wasn't a problem." I will say I was a little shook afterward, the more I started thinking about it. Because I already have oral herpes so having that breakout was already a traumatic experience for me [chuckles]. With that first individual, it was a little different. It was something new. But also something that comes with a possibly life-altering thing afterward. You know?
Courtney: Yeah!
Jesse: But yeah, that was experience [number] one. It wasn't anything too crazy, but it was just kind of like breaking the ice. You know?
Courtney: Yeah. I'm curious cuz I'm sure this is a question that people listening may have as well: Did you not experience any stigma having oral herpes? Or was there--did you disclose to people: "I have oral herpes. Here's what we need to talk about." How was that for you?
Jesse: So, I feel some type of way about this situation [chuckles] for sure. The thing is, I didn't know for a very long time, because most people don't know. And it's insanely common. And the biggest problem is that people just talk about it like it's a canker sore: "You just have a canker sore, you just have a canker sore." No! You have herpes [laughs]. And that's the big problem. So I didn't know until I had a stress breakout and my mouth was covered. It was all the way down my throat. I thought I was dying. It was bad. There were probably 20 sores altogether and I had to go to a wedding two days later. And all of those homies are very, very close. And I was so embarrassed and so disgusted in myself dealing with that situation. Not a single person said a thing and that almost made it worse [laughs] for me. But it was very visible. I had to go to work for the next week, as well, and nobody said anything which was very interesting for me because I have heard many people make comments about other people. It kind of ties in, we were talking about this before the podcast started, the whole stigma with men versus women, and in some social groups with men there's a lot of like: "Oh, well she has herpes." It's like a negative thing, it's a way to put someone down, put a woman down or something. I had heard plenty of that growing up and then all of a sudden here I am with herpes and not a damn person is saying anything. And that just struck me as really weird and kind of fucked up, I'm not gonna lie. But after that whole thing, the diagnosis, then it became very important. I went and talked to my doctor and honestly, that was the biggest change. And that kind of is what set me on this path of understanding is that when she told me it could be one of many things...right? I could break out consistently, I could break out maybe never again. It made me realize that this is going to be a learning experience. And from that point forward I've always disclosed with partners. It's always been like a: "Hey, you may not think a cold sore on your mouth is a big deal, but you'll definitely think it's a big deal if it's on your genitals. So, let's be very open about this." And there is a very strict amount of time, even after that cold sore is gone that we're playing it safe. Of course with oral herpes people are much more willing to be physical, like mouth to mouth. I found a lot of people are OK. Or I find people that have never told anyone in their life that they also have it! And they're like: "Wow, thank you for telling me, I have it too. I've always been really nervous. Other partners have put me down." And so that's always been a really nice thing. And I honestly think that disclosure is one of the most gratifying experiences. Cuz you find people. You find people that are really quality. People who have been through some serious shit. And you connect. I think that's really nice.
Courtney: Yeah. And that's something that we've covered in this series as well, or that comes up consistently for sure, in that this is an opportunity to connect. It is a vulnerable piece of information that may come with something that aligns with stigma. And it's often challenging for some people to talk about based on whatever traumatic associations or emotions or thoughts come with saying the words: "I have herpes." Right? Now when this person disclosed to you, was this before your oral herpes outbreak, or was it after?
Jesse: This was after.
Courtney: OK. And so, how was the conversation? What was your comfort level with sexual activity, knowing that you have herpes orally with someone who has herpes genitally?
Jesse: The comfort level was actually kind of mid-tier. Just because it was a Tinder hookup. So there was no real connection there, right? [chuckles] It was just one of those: "Hey! You're attractive, you think I'm attractive, we're just going to have some fun." The other thing for me is disclosing with oral herpes and not being in full outbreak, it's good to let somebody know if there is, especially possibly going to be a continued connection, right? Because there's gonna be a time where we need to stop. So, my comfort level was already mid-tier, battling with: "Do I need to tell this person?" And this is still early on in my mid-twenties. And it was like: "I don't know if I need to." And then she disclosed to me! And it was like, OK, well now it's fair game, I'm just going to disclose as well. Have that conversation. And I'm not gonna lie, at that time I saw my version of herpes as less dangerous. I actually compared the two and put them on a tier list and saw myself as being almost "higher"...well, not "higher", but like less risk than that individual. And so I was nervous. Even though there was a chance I could pass something along. Thinking back on that and contemplating on just that experience itself, I was very uneducated still [laughs] and pretty young.
Courtney: What kind of information did your doctor give you? You said that y'all talked about it and that was something that helped. I'd like to know what they shared that you found to be most useful.
Jesse: So the first thing that alleviated any kind of stress was her letting me know that a high percentage of humans, in general, have it already and most just don't know. And a lot of people contract it as a child. And when she explained that...you know, when you look at toddlers! They're putting everything in their mouth. They're literally...they're picking up rocks. And [laughs] you can...she was like: "You can get it from just literally putting anything in your mouth that's been connected." And I was like: "Damn! Well, when I was super poor I used to pick up cigarettes off the ground, maybe that's what it was." Right? Like, [laughs] you know? I was like: "Damn, OK, I've put myself at risk a lot of times, not thinking about what could happen." But she also gave me a lot of information about how it can be passed from parents. And how a lot of parents actually give it to their kids when they're younger. And then I thought about my parents. You know, my parents kissed me on the lips fi--forever! I was like: "Dang! Well, what about that?" You know? It just started to make me think. And it made me feel like I wasn't entirely alone in this situation. And then the other big part was when she explained the scale of outbreaks; how it can be throughout the rest of my life. It could be [inaudible] earlier, it could be one outbreak for the rest of my life and then it could never show again. It could be one twice a month! Or it could be once, twice a year. And the final thing that I actually found very fascinating and led me to do more research was she let me know that there are triggers. And the triggers are a big part of...like me paying attention to what I'm doing in my life and my health. And so that was actually...that sent me on an adventure of research and finding out. I found some trigger foods later on in my life. Things that are high in acidity. And then also I started to manage my stress a bit better because the stress outbreaks have always been the worst ones [laughs]. It was just a really calm conversation and it made me feel much better. I mean I left--I was expecting her to be like: "Here's some antibiotics and we're gonna send you off to this place!" And she was like: "Naw, you're good!" [laughs]
Courtney: Man!
Jesse: It was so chill.
Courtney: Yeah, I like that response. It seems like your doctor was more comfortable talking about herpes orally than genitally. Because so many people are just given the medication, maybe a statistic pamphlet or something and then sent on their way. But you got an engaged healthcare provider who was willing to talk to you about managing stress, speak to outbreaks, talk about managing the symptoms. A lot of things that maybe doctors just aren't comfortable associating with when it comes to sex. So was your doctor the one who initiated this conversation or did you ask any particular questions, or what?
Jesse: Initiate the conversation about oral herpes?
Courtney: Just about the added information. So it wasn't like they were just like: "Here, you have herpes, here's how many people have it--
Jesse: Right, right.
Courtney: --here's some medication." It was a much more detailed dialogue. And I'm curious to know, like, how did that happen because it's so--it's foreign to me!
Jesse: Oh! OK, yeah. That was actually all her doing. She was the one who actually initiated that conversation and started providing me with the information I needed. I'm sure she could tell I was also very, very terrified at the moment. This was before we were all wearing masks [laughs]. Shit, life would have been a whole lot different, you know? [laughs]
Courtney: [chuckles]
Jesse: Right? [laughs] It's kind of sketch. I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but the type of doctor she is is a Naturopath. So she has a different perspective on a lot of things when it comes to health and she's not gonna just prescribe me some over-the-counter drug [to make] a little bit of cash because here I am, another statistic, right? So, she has been my doctor for a while and she always lets me know that there are options if you want them. But it's best for us to wait and for us to take note of this. And that's been always my experience with her, is that we--whenever there's something going on, we take time to analyze what's going on within my body before there is something prescribed. So, yeah, I definitely--she's a great doctor. And it makes me sad to hear that that's not the experience that a lot of people get. I don't even go to doctors very often and [laughs] when I found her I was like: "Welp! [laughs] So."
Courtney: All right, thank you for sharing that. I want to encourage people--I guess at this point--to explore your options. You know, we talk about the medical community on this podcast, I've interviewed medical professionals and mental health professionals. And people who've had great experiences with their healthcare provider and poor experiences with their healthcare provider. And all we can really do to assess this is invite curiosity into the conversation. So, being able to ask these kinds of questions and see where your doctor or nurse's general knowledge is around whatever it is that you're bringing into the room at that moment. It might be hard to filter through the emotions that you may be experiencing and get it out before you're rushed out of the room. But what are our options as far as exploring different kinds of doctors? We think that [having] a doctor means that you don't need to shop around for a new one. If I got somebody that cuts my hair and he fucks my shit up one time, I'm gonna look for a new barber! So, it's the same thing here as far as looking for a new doctor goes. But I just wanted to add that in there to close that out. Now, what has your sexual health communication been moving forward from having learned that oral herpes or herpes, cold sores or herpes, and that someone had disclosed to you about their genital herpes, and then having had the experience where your friends knew that you had this oral herpes outbreak and while having talked shit before on people with herpes, now you're in their circle and they don't say anything. I'm curious to know how you navigated any dialogue around your sexual health or with even sex, period, with potential partners?
Jesse: So, it took me a couple of years, actually, to become more confident in conversation. And during that time it was mostly me just digesting the conversation around me. Right? And paying attention. Because once I realized that I was a part of the stigma and now I was being--it was almost like it was ignored. It became odd. And so, it wasn't until I actually started dating a long-term partner that had genital herpes that I started to become more outspoken. I had slowly started a little bit here and there, because in the community I was in I smoked cigarettes back then a lot. And so people would share cigarettes and that was a big thing for me. I was like: "Hey. I have a cold sore right now, I actually have a herpes outbreak. You don't want one of these cigarettes." And people would be like, you know, housemates and stuff: "Oh yeah, well I probably have it too, like whatever man." You know, that kind of shit. It's like, all right, well. And so it wasn't really a good jump-off point to have that conversation. But as years passed, and once I was actually dating that person and had a much more extensive conversation, and I started to realize more and more that people just avoid the topic, it became something where I realized if I just have confidence when I talk about this conversation, I might actually get a reaction from someone or a response from someone who's been wanting to talk about this. And actually start a conversation and other people might hear this conversation. And it ended up actually working. Some people would join in on this conversation about the stigma of herpes and I'd get to hear their take on it, or they stand there silently and I know they were digesting or they had feelings about it or maybe an experience and maybe they weren't comfortable having that conversation. But it felt really good to be able to just have a positive outlook in public instead of just talking about things behind closed doors. And so that's kind of been the path forward at this point and the experience when it comes to conversation about it. My take.
Courtney: Yeah. Talking about this out loud, publicly, where people could potentially overhear is challenging. And even for me being somebody who is open about my herpes status, I find that it's easier for me to do alone. But if I'm out with friends, if I'm on a date and the conversation comes up and someone overhears, I'm worried about that other person that's with me. I'm like: "Ohhh, I have to now tell these people that I have herpes. They may make assumptions, you may be stigmatized." It's a lot easier to do nowadays at age 33 than it was when I was 24, 25, 26. Or mid-twenties, late twenties even. Simply because I think there comes something with age. Perhaps confidence, maturity, or maybe you just learn that people don't really give a fuck, and a lot of times they may not even be listening. And it's just like you said, sometimes people may get silent or they may be a little bit uncomfortable or they're just digesting what it is that was just said because it's completely foreign to have this kind of dialogue or conversation, especially so freely and openly because we're quote "not supposed to do that."
Jesse: Mmm-hmm. Something that I think about often is that this behavior is learned. And this behavior was learned at a young age. And when we're in our thirties, we've been taking a lot of time, we've been going through a lot of experiences, we're learning more while other people are just not. And I think that has a lot to do with it when it comes to, you know, as you get older you start to want to speak out because you're living with something that has been stigmatized for so long. And it really ties into sexual health education as a child. I mean I grew up super religious and closed off from any kind of sexual health or education at all. So I walked into the world just blind [laughs]. You know, I was falling off cliffs left and right! [laughs] And so, I just feel like that's a really, really big thing that I think people probably need to realize: Is that this is all behavior that's been learned as a child. You know? Like, taught in schools or not taught in schools! Just avoided completely. Of course it's foreign, of course it's scary by the time you encounter it when you're in your late twenties [laughs] or mid-twenties.
Courtney: Yeah. And especially because we also learn, like, while we're not talking about sex or we're not taught, really, about sex and the pleasure piece. It sort of like this gets tucked away and it goes into the darkness, into the shadows. And then we get into adulthood and there are just like the sparks of it. Because we see it in movies, we see it everywhere but for whatever reason, we're not fucking supposed to talk about it. How ass backward is that? So we think that sex is supposed to just happen between someone with a penis and someone with a vulva. They make eyes and then they kiss, and then the next thing you know, clothes are off and sex is had. Like, how sex is portrayed in movies, in media, is not the reality of it. And us not talking to youth about it and giving them the tools and communication skills that they need in order to navigate it is causing far more harm than it is good, by quote "protecting them from the 'dangers' of sex." And when I say the "dangers" of sex, I speak to my experience growing up where it was getting somebody pregnant or getting an S T D. And now having learned that both of these things can be mitigated, there are precautions that you can take, it's like why weren't these things taught at a younger age? Because along the way of stumbling, I'm not the only person. I'm sure there were many other people who, what they didn't know, caused them far more harm and people around them harm than what they could have learned if there just wasn't this discomfort. Just like with healthcare providers in talking about sex. Like, how can you talk so freely and openly about cold sores and not be willing to talk about it when it shifts location to the genital region?
Jesse: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, you make a good point about media. Cuz media is incredibly toxic. A previous partner of mine, we both have oral herpes and she and I were watching a movie, I can't remember which one it was, and she made a comment, she was like: "Why does the bad guy always have a cold sore?" And I was like: "Damn! No way! Oh my god!" And then we started listing out other movies where the villain, the way they make him look gross, is to have a cold sore!
Courtney: All right, welcome back. [laughs] I got a call on "Do Not Disturb" and one of my people who can get through called. Everything's good, we're good. Um, but yeah, just closing out the conversation about the bad guy being portrayed as a villain and making them look evil and bad by giving them a cold sore, as our guest Jesse's partner had pointed out. Yeah, we can't figure out the movies we were just talking about that. Like, what movies [laughs] are they? Are these like low-budget Netflix documentaries where they're walking around and recording everything on the GoPro?
Jesse: [laughs] Probably not. If it was like that it probably would be a real herpes outbreak [laughs]. [inaudible]
Courtney: [laughs] I'm thinking, what immediately comes to mind is Red Skull. How his whole face is just [laughs] is like one [herpes sore]. Off of Avengers.
Jesse: Oh my god.
Courtney: [laughs] It's just red. It's just a red head. Oh well maybe you know....that's a reach, that's a reach.
Jesse: [laughs]
Courtney: So speaking to the relationship that you had, long-term, with a partner who does have herpes, what was your thought process or decision-making process after that person disclosed to you on whether or not you were gonna move forward? Because you mentioned earlier that you had a partner who you met on Tinder. It was a short-term thing and you were still concerned about your sexual health after that interaction. Between then and this new relationship, obviously, you developed some education, you had some maturity take place. So now bring me to the start of this relationship where this partner disclosed that they do have genital herpes to you.
Jesse: So this person and I really enjoyed each other for quite some time before. We've known each other for maybe nine, ten months before we actually got physical. So there was already a pretty deep connection. And so in my mindset, at that time especially, there was more willingness to listen, right? More willingness to maybe take a chance, in a sense. So when we did finally get physical, she disclosed beforehand and I disclosed as well and we decided that...we had more of a conversation: Was there medication involved? What were maybe my chances of contracting? Like, how much protection do we need to use? And we just decided, you know, well, we really want to do this, at least we don't have to worry about oral contacts of any sort. We were like: "OK, well we're kind of clear on that route, so we can at least explore and play and not have any problems." But it was a very extensive conversation for us not having any outbreaks. We weren't showing at any point in time, but it was just a really healthy conversation. And we ended up sleeping together and it felt fine. It was a little bit different than the time before because there were feelings there, right? And it wasn't the first time. I think that's a big one, is that like the first experience is always a little bit more jarring because it's just something new. You don't know! This could be the one. You hear about that all the time, someone sleeps with one person and they get herpes. That was a little bit better and then we continued to have conversations from that point forward and discuss...once we...I found later that she actually didn't know statistics on her medication; the chances of me being able to contract it while she was taking medication. So we looked into that a little bit more and decided to no longer use protection while she was on medication. And then health insurance, meds run out, we switch back to using protection again. So just being very cautious and aware. And there was a couple of times where it's like heat of the moment, on vacation or something, and it's like: "Well, unfortunately, we can't." Not being able to have sex was like a thing. That was real. And it wasn't just like: "Oh, we'll take a chance. Oh, it doesn't really matter." So I think sexual health-wise, just a very much more mature and healthy relationship, especially knowing that we both had a form of herpes. But yeah, much more mature. And I think conversation was a big, big part of that.
Courtney: Yeah. Now, the communication piece is something that you spoke very, very well to. And thank you for that. I am wondering if there were aspects of the communication outside of herpes. Were there any other hard things that you and your partner had to discuss outside of herpes?
Jesse: Hard things?
Courtney: Yeah. Like, was herpes the most communicative thing that you had to go back and forth with each other about?
Jesse: I'd say in the beginning, yeah. Totally. But as the relationship progressed, I mean that really fell lower on the totem pole. There were more important things to discuss. Sexual trauma, that was something that took the high road as opposed to talking about herpes every time. The conversation of how she possibly contracted--or no, not possibly--how she did contract herpes. That happened way early because she wanted to share it. She wanted to tell me about this asshole in her life. And it was probably [also her] getting some stuff off her chest as well. I didn't ask, like: "Well, how did you get it?" Like I don't need to bring that shit up. But that conversation happened and then it didn't need to happen anymore. Right?
Courtney: Yeah.
Jesse: But it definitely wasn't the most important thing and it didn't need to be a conversation always because it's not going anywhere, right?
Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Jesse: It's always in the back of our minds, and I think there is a mutual understanding that there was in that relationship that we're both responsible for our actions in this. And so it's just as much my decision as it is her decision. Right? And so, that conversation was really important early on. But yeah, things just moved past that. It's not that big of a deal! [laughs] You know? Like, in comparison to like some of the sexual trauma that both of us had to encounter in our lives? Man, we talked way more about that and how to progress our relationship emotionally, physically. We talked way more about that. And grew as humans and just those times and those moments together.
Courtney: Did the communication about herpes make harder conversations easier to have?
Jesse: Did the communication about herpes make it a harder conversation to have?
Courtney: No, oh, no, no. Did that make hard conversations easier?
Jesse: I'd say yeah! Totally. That was like the big gatekeeper. That was the giant lock on the door and once that was unlocked and understood everything else was just...you know, it just kind of rolled with...it just kind of continued, easy. I will say because we talked about herpes it didn't make other things traumatic in our lives easier to talk about. It just made it a little bit less...ahhhh, what's the best way to put it? It was easier to navigate conversations that were touchy because we had already overcome a larger hurdle. Right? I think that that's the best way to put it. And because we're with people that are accepting of who we are and this thing that we're put down in society for, all of a sudden now it's like well, this person is probably OK with me telling them about this super rough thing that happened 10 years ago. Maybe I'm OK disclosing some other information that I didn't disclose with previous partners. And that's kind of where the relationship progressed and we got much closer. I'm not saying that we got closer because we disclosed herpes but that was definitely a part of it.
Courtney: What question, or questions, do you think are good for a person who is trying to figure out if they want to move forward with someone who does have herpes? What can they ask the partner, what can they ask themselves in order to confidently move forward?
Jesse: Let's see. As in what can a person who doesn't have herpes ask their partner?
Courtney: Yeah.
Jesse: Oh, OK.
Courtney: Yeah. For like--let me rephrase it. So, if you could go back and you had someone disclose their status to you, what are some things that you would ask either that partner or yourself about making the decision to move forward?
Jesse: OK. As someone who doesn't have herpes--or genital herpes--the thing I would ask right out the bat is how adamant am I about my own sexual health? How educated am I with my own sexual health? Am I just jumping into something that I don't have the tools and resources to handle later on in my life? That's something I would definitely ask because younger me was not very good about sexual health. That's something that's very important. I think another question probably for someone asking their partner is just kind of the basics. How often do you get an outbreak? What do you know about your symptoms? What do you know about your situation? Because it's almost like betting at that point. Is this person aware or very cautious about their own sexual health as well? There's plenty of people you encounter that are like: "Oh yeah, I'm great at this" or "I'm great at that" and they're just bullshitting. They're just talking out their ass. Especially if you add heat of the moment, you add alcohol to the situation. Someone just might be giving you a quick little answer and then that ain't the truth. I think that's something that's very important, is just getting a gauge of that person that you're about to engage with. Getting an idea of where they are in their diagnosis. How long have they had this for? It doesn't really matter in my mind, how long you've had it. But it does matter how long you've been taking steps to handle it, right? It makes me feel more confident in this decision that we're making. Having that communication. If someone were to tell me: "Oh well it's not that big of a deal. Oh I just take meds every so often", I'd want to talk more [chuckles]. I just would. And I think that's totally fair and valid. It doesn't mean I'm going to completely push them away, it just means I want to have more security in that situation. I think those are the two big things that I would personally ask for. And yeah, I think that's kind of it for me. Yeah, those are the big ones.
Courtney: All right, perfect! Was there ever a point where you thought you had genital herpes from your partner or were there any fears around it? Did you have any concerns? [Did you wonder] what if I get genital herpes?
Jesse: Yeah. Oh yeah. The biggest fear was: What if I get genital herpes and we break up? What am I gonna do? It's interesting when you don't have it and you're sleeping with someone who does have it and you start to doubt their sexual health. Maybe things have changed from when you first started sleeping together. I started to worry, like: "Oh, well what if she just doesn't disclose this information to me now?" In that relationship, I thought I did get it at one point. But it ended up not being. I don't know if it was in-growns, it was probably in-growns, right? [laughs] But me being unaware because I haven't seen them on myself, I didn't know. And so, after going to the doctor again--and I will say this kind of brings back to when we talked about with medical professionals--when I went, I went to Planned Parenthood this time. And they actually tried to get me not to get tested. And that's the second time I've had someone tell me: "Well if you get false negative--or false positives are very common. So if you get this test and you come out positive but you're not, it'll change your life." Right? And this is a medical professional telling me this. Just take my damn blood! [laughs] I came here for a reason! I did push--the first time I said no, the second time I did push and I was like: "You know what, I just need to know." And when that came back negative, that was just a really positive thing for me in my life, where I was like: "OK, well now I know." And my partner was also feeling incredibly guilty because I might now have it. And even though we had disclosed it that this was OK, right? Knowing that and...it kind of like reset us a little bit. Things were getting a little bit scary, where it was like: "Well, maybe I do" and now I have to live with this for the rest of my life. But that's a choice I made in the beginning. I knew that. When I first stepped into this [laughs]. So yeah, definitely some scares but I think that the scares are more due to less confidence and solid ground in the relationship than it is to my own body actually having changes. It's like, now I'm doubting this individual because we probably should be breaking up [laughs]. You know? That's mainly where it was. So yeah, another lesson and something worth remembering and thinking about in the future with future partners.
Courtney: Was dating or sex or a relationship with this person who had herpes any different than any other relationship that you've had with someone who hadn't shared a positive H S V status with you before?
Jesse: So, was dating, relationship, or sex different with this person than it would have been with someone who hadn't disclosed?
Courtney: Yeah. Like, are you able to compare experiences with people who haven't shared an S T I status or who may not have had herpes in comparison with this person?
Jesse: Yeah. I mean, bad sex is bad sex, you know? [laughs] It just is what it is. It has nothing to do with disclosure. I will say, though, that the people I have slept with that have disclosed that information to me, it is raised them on the bar of my respect for them and the passion in that sex is there. It speaks nothing of their sexual experience though. I will say the potential is there for the sex to be different. But it's not always. But man, is it better to find out before than to hear later on. I don't really think that there is any difference in the relationship or the sex, based on positive status or not positive status in regards to human to human interaction. Like the connection, the love, the care. That has nothing to do with it, it's only about sexual health at that point. And that's something that is its own compartment of that relationship and it's just as important as the rest. It's just one added thing. But I don't know, I'm in my thirties, everyone's got baggage [laughs]. And someone's got a divorce, someone's got sexual traumas, just any kind of trauma. Or someone has herpes! It just all goes in that same category in my mind and it's just the way we're able to navigate that and if we're ready to navigate that. You shouldn't be getting into a relationship if you're mentally unstable and can't handle that. Like, if someone tells you they have herpes and you flip the fuck out, you weren't ready. If someone tells you that they have some trauma and you flip the fuck out, you still weren't ready! I kind of see it in the same category. So, no, I don't see a difference too much in someone disclosing--or someone who has it and someone who doesn't have it.
Courtney: All right, man, that's perfect! That wraps up all the questions that I could come up with for you. Is there anything you wanna leave us with?
Jesse: I think the only thing I'd like to add is a reminder that a lot of this stigma that's negative, it comes from us learning so long ago. I wanted to at least share that when I was younger, it was so common, I feel, to hear someone be put down because like--herpes was the label that was slapped on an individual if they were "gross" or if they were a "whore". Right? Like: "Oh, that person sleeps with everyone! I heard they have herpes." Like, that was the common thing. It's not like: "Oh, they have gonorrhea! Oh, they have the clap!" It wasn't anything like that! It was: "They have herpes, so they're labeled: Don't Touch Them." Right? And thinking back on it, it's just disgusting and sad and I'm really happy that people like yourself are working so hard to try and change this stigma. And I saw a TikTok recently that was so good. And it was a health professional that was just like, you know, we need to change the narrative around herpes and start calling it herpes. Not calling it cold sores. And that's like in relation to what I have, oral herpes. Because people are giving other people herpes genitally because they think they just have a cold sore! And she made a really, really good point that that is the highest level, the medical professional level, they're telling people they have a cold sore and letting them go. They need to say: "You have herpes." You need to know. And then people can have this conversation, have conversations like you and I about something that isn't life-ending. Right? Like I'm gonna wake up tomorrow, god willing, [laughing] and continue my life. It's not the end of the world. So yeah, just pass that positivity on.
Courtney: All right! Well, thank you for being a part of this, Jesse. I really appreciate you. We'll reconnect when this is gonna be uploaded. It's gonna be...it's gonna be a minute [laughs]. But--
Jesse: Yeah, yeah.
Courtney: But thank you, I appreciate your time, and then if you have any questions in the meantime, feel free to reach out.
Jesse: Will do.
Courtney: All right, my man.
Jesse: I appreciate it.
Courtney: Thank you.
Jesse: Yeah, you're welcome.
Courtney: That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review, subscribe to, share this podcast. W W W dot S P F P P dot org is where you can learn more about our organization. You can donate, invite me onto your podcast, invite me to your sexual health conference or speaking event. That is gonna be an opportunity to bring money into the nonprofit. If you wanna be a guest, feel free to reach out. I can be reached on Instagram at "H on my chest" [@honmychest] or you can email me through the website directly. But I'm most active on Instagram, engaging with people one on one. And there you can also find a lot of, like, different people who may not wanna share their story on a podcast but wanna offer some insights and experiences via D M. I will share anonymous screenshots of those periodically. And that's just "H on my chest [@honmychest] on Instagram. You can donate today by sending whatever you feel in your heart compelled to [chuckles] to CourtneyBrame on Venmo or Cashapp. Just put "donation" in the comments, cuz I also teach Yoga classes, and those Yoga classes are...the money goes in there. So I go through and I filter and delegate everything accordingly. But yeah, thank you for being a part of this series and listening to this point. I don't have any more upcoming interviews for this Discordant Dating Series, so this is it! I guess we'll get back to our regularly scheduled programming next week. Thank you for coming along with me for this ride. I cannot thank you enough. Til next time, stay sex-positive.